Hudson: China's Land Question

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Is this what you call a good standard of living?

We've gone over this before.

I was in Beijing in 1984. The smog from the coal smoke used for cooking fires was the worst I've seen anywhere - including LA in the early 80s.

Does China have a pollution problem? Absolutely

Do Chinese have better standards of living today than in 1984? Absolutely

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

In my view, the 'rule of law' in China is actually stronger. I say so because in China, you can be the head of the FDA and still get executed for misdeeds.

Are Chinese laws more adhered to? I would say that US laws are more adhered to, but that laws in the US apply far less to the upper classes than to the same in China.

Thus from a percentage basis, I'd agree with you: The US follows its laws more than China.

But from a societal basis, I disagree. In China, no matter who you are, you can still get touched. In the US, you really have to do something extraordinary in order to be prosecuted, much less go to prison.

My view has more to do with how the law impacts behavior. From what I see, the law in the US is no more a concern for the upper classes than is food or other consumables.

You can be convicted of utter treason and still get pardoned by the President after fleeing into exile (Marc Rich).

You can lie in front of Congress and get 3 chances to revamp your message (Clapper on NSA surveillance extent).

You can commit billions of dollars and tens of thousands of troops into active combat and not worry about a declaration of war.

Leona Helmsley was right.

I can definitely agree with you here, if you have money and/or are in the upper echelon of society you can get away with murder (ahem OJ).

I would disagree with you about Rich. I have read the case on him and I don't feel he committed treason (although Guiliani got famous off of Rich). Yes he was a US citizen but his "trading with the enemy" was conducted from his companies in Switzerland not the US. We have corporations now based in the US that still trade with Iran illegally. Rich was a trader and traded with the INOC even though he was Jewish and the "Iranian state" hasnt been the kindest to Jewish people over the years.

You could spin it and say Rich was providing for a country (South Africa) by selling them precious oil so that the people wouldnt suffer as much as the international community wanted them to suffer due to Apartheid.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

I would disagree with you about Rich. I have read the case on him and I don't feel he committed treason (although Guiliani got famous off of Rich). Yes he was a US citizen but his "trading with the enemy" was conducted from his companies in Switzerland not the US. We have corporations now based in the US that still trade with Iran illegally. Rich was a trader and traded with the INOC even though he was Jewish and the "Iranian state" hasnt been the kindest to Jewish people over the years.

Letter of law vs. intent.

As a US citizen, are you supposed to adhere to the laws of the nation you hail from?

More importantly, were these Swiss companies just vehicles for plausible deniability or not?

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Letter of law vs. intent.

As a US citizen, are you supposed to adhere to the laws of the nation you hail from?

More importantly, were these Swiss companies just vehicles for plausible deniability or not?

Rich was forced to flee to the US with his family when he was 5 years old from Belgium. His original last name was Reich (obvious why it had to be changed). His father sold everything they had a few months before the invasion of Poland and they bought a car to drive to Grenada in Spain. From there they hopped a ship to Morocco where they waited 6 months for one of their relatives in the US to provide them documents and safe passage to the US.

Yes, he was a naturalized citizen but I do not believe he ever felt like a citizen of any one nation. If you are living abroad in another country like he was in Switzerland I would assume you would adopt their customs and their laws as I would if I lived in Morocco for example. I would celebrate their Muslim holidays even though I am not Muslim and observe any religious holidays of my own faith privately. I wouldn't force the nation to accept my religion and make special political accomodations for it either unlike some in the US. I would learn Arabia, French, Spanish that they speak in Morocco and so on.

[touchring]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Rich was forced to flee to the US with his family when he was 5 years old from Belgium. His original last name was Reich (obvious why it had to be changed). His father sold everything they had a few months before the invasion of Poland and they bought a car to drive to Grenada in Spain. From there they hopped a ship to Morocco where they waited 6 months for one of their relatives in the US to provide them documents and safe passage to the US.

Yes, he was a naturalized citizen but I do not believe he ever felt like a citizen of any one nation. If you are living abroad in another country like he was in Switzerland I would assume you would adopt their customs and their laws as I would if I lived in Morocco for example. I would celebrate their Muslim holidays even though I am not Muslim and observe any religious holidays of my own faith privately. I wouldn't force the nation to accept my religion and make special political accomodations for it either unlike some in the US. I would learn Arabia, French, Spanish that they speak in Morocco and so on.

It's funny to talk about law when people are disappearing out of thin air all the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...peared-lawyers

China must be held to account over 'disappeared' lawyers

As public discontent runs high, China is once more embracing totalitarianism and rejecting governing in accordance with law

China's leaders are clamping down on human rights lawyers. In the past 40 days, six lawyers have been 'disappeared'. Photograph: Getty Images

China's human rights lawyers are currently experiencing unprecedented persecution. Over the past 40 days, six lawyers have been taken away by the police and disappeared. Dozens of other rights defenders, activists and dissidents have also been taken away; and one of the lawyers has resurfaced under circumstances suggesting that he was badly tortured. He was described as "looking like a mummy". Such cases used to be very rare. Lawyer Gao Zhisheng, disappeared three times since 2007, reappeared twice to tell stories of horrible torture.

It is not as though China lacks laws prohibiting torture, or as though it could not put its political critics through an ordinary – if not a fair – criminal process, which among other things would require them having access to lawyers. But rather than being punished for what they have done, these lawyers and their colleagues are being terrorised for what they might yet do.

In a society in which discontent runs high, and in which there have been anonymous calls for a Chinese "jasmine revolution", the party-state fears lawyers and activists exposing its wrongs, helping people affected by injustices ranging from illegal land-grabs and demolitions to political or religious persecution. The authorities have long relied on abuses to control certain groups, such as petitioners, but had until recently treated the professionals who gave a voice to their grievances with a little more respect. "Now they're getting so nervous, they've started really hating us," one of the lawyers told me about a month before vanishing.

In part, it has to be admitted, the current wave of terror seems unprecedented because there were no human rights lawyers whenTiananmen Square, the cultural revolution, and other brutal and destructive crackdowns and movements occurred. Forty years ago, few Chinese people would have thought of legally challenging rights infringements because there were hardly any legal institutions to speak of. The legal system has only over the past two decades begun to accommodate the use of law against human rights violations – a kind of work that always also involves changing the system gradually and nonviolently from within.

Now, the system that has been trying to seek legitimacy from legality has become afraid of people taking the idea of law too seriously. Perhaps the Communist party leadership could not anticipate that rights would become so popular. And who could have predicted the rise of the internet with its increased opportunities for activism, allowing lawyers to take their advocacy outside China's controlled courtrooms? It is becoming increasingly apparent that the leadership has decided to change course politically, away from "governing in accordance with law" and back to a more totalitarian system.

Human rights lawyers keep a sort of mental list of persons likely to be targeted next, depending on how active they have recently been. Lawyers Tang Jitian, Jiang Tianyong and Teng Biao in Beijing, Liu Shihui and Tang Jingling in Guangzhou, and Li Tiantian in Shanghai were high up on that list before the police took them away.

From the authorities' point of view, the trick is to manage these lists. They "need" to disappear those at the top and frighten those lower down; to allow just enough information out to instil fear, but not enough information for anyone to hold them responsible. They need to prevent any potentially hard-hitting accounts and images that would damage them (think of Abu Ghraib or Guantánamo Bay), through intimidation and control extending to the remotest village, if need be. I could go into a little more detail, if it weren't for the fact that I, too, had to be afraid of the consequences for my friends.

This is how terror works itself into the consciousness of everyone, even those supposedly shielded from it. A child whose father is among the disappeared recently said to her mother: "We mustn't think too much about Dad, because you say that this will make a person sneeze (the Chinese equivalent of "making someone's ears burn"). If he is badly wounded, sneezing will make him hurt even worse."
Anyone would be reluctant to report when this would put an informant at risk: one cannot entirely escape this logic of terror. But there is at least one thing foreign governments and publics can do, which is to ask the Chinese government where the disappeared rights defenders are, why they have been taken away, and how they are being treated. We must ask these questions, not only privately but also in public, to avoid becoming complicit in what is done to them.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/disa...urs-2012-07-04

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Yes, he was a naturalized citizen but I do not believe he ever felt like a citizen of any one nation. If you are living abroad in another country like he was in Switzerland I would assume you would adopt their customs and their laws as I would if I lived in Morocco for example. I would celebrate their Muslim holidays even though I am not Muslim and observe any religious holidays of my own faith privately. I wouldn't force the nation to accept my religion and make special political accomodations for it either unlike some in the US. I would learn Arabia, French, Spanish that they speak in Morocco and so on.

I'm unclear why his family fleeing Belgium has anything to do with anything.

I am also unclear, if he was a US citizen in nothing but name, he had to flee the US.

I haven't looked closely into Marc Rich, but I have very little doubt that his activities are similar to those of his wife. I have seen all manner of very well documented journalism which shows that Denise Rich is the shadowy head of a huge umbrella of cutout companies. Thus the assertion that Marc Rich's Swiss companies were just there for some historical reason - for me, the burden of proof is on him to show that.

Links can be found here:

http://www.icij.org/offshore/secret-...-global-impact

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-m...nctions-2013-6

It's funny to talk about law when people are disappearing out of thin air all the time.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...peared-lawyers

Sure, it is a terrible thing.

But apparently for you, it is only countries who disappear their own citizens which are 'bad'.

The US disappears all manner of non-US citizens - is that ok?

How many foreigners does China disappear? Blow up with a drone missile? Kidnap and send to Guantanamo?

[touchring]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Sure, it is a terrible thing.

But apparently for you, it is only countries who disappear their own citizens which are 'bad'.

The US disappears all manner of non-US citizens - is that ok?

How many foreigners does China disappear? Blow up with a drone missile? Kidnap and send to Guantanamo?

The communists like to use the US as an example when propagandizing the perils of "freedom". Is it a coincidence that their counterpart in Singapore does the same?

Ironically, the US is not even considered a free country by international standard!


http://www.economist.com/node/8908438

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

The communists like to use the US as an example when propagandizing the perils of "freedom". Is it a coincidence that their counterpart in Singapore does the same?

Given that the US bashes China for its 'lack of freedom', I can't say it is all that surprising.

Ironically, the US is not even considered a free country by international standard!

Even disregarding the use of data coming out of the Economist, I would also point out that the list you put up could be as easily transposed with wealth.

Rich countries can afford to be 'free'.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Speaking of Chinese land.

Here's an article on coal mine speculation boom/crash:

http://english.caixin.com/2013-08-01/100564292.html?p1

If only there were a Chinese mobile app tying in China's eleventeen jillion pawnshops to gauge interest rates, bad loans, sentiment.

[touchring]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Speaking of Chinese land.

Here's an article on coal mine speculation boom/crash:

http://english.caixin.com/2013-08-01/100564292.html?p1

If only there were a Chinese mobile app tying in China's eleventeen jillion pawnshops to gauge interest rates, bad loans, sentiment.

I wonder what's the true source of funds for pawnshops? The big 4?

Ultimately, someone must pay for it.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Speaking of Chinese land.

Here's an article on coal mine speculation boom/crash:

http://english.caixin.com/2013-08-01/100564292.html?p1

If only there were a Chinese mobile app tying in China's eleventeen jillion pawnshops to gauge interest rates, bad loans, sentiment.

By far the most interesting phrase was this:

"In fact, most financial activity took place on the private lending market."

China, rife with corruption, needs to understand that in a law abiding nation; the rules for professional conduct is a major part of such law. Then we have to add the Engineers AND Doctors remit; do no harm.

It might at first sight seem to be a great way to get rich by raising fixed asset prices; instead, it is by far and away the very best way to destroy the entire national economy. Just imagine how wealthy they would all be today if they had, instead, not raised fixed asset prices and let a true free market in Coal set the price. Then, as the price increased, the ability to pay the new price would be severely dampened by the lack of funds to pay. A natural suppression of the price would have held the entire economy in line.

All we see, all over the planet, is the result of allowing "Private financial" to create totally imaginary sums of money out of thin air. Leverage!

China must set too and create a stable economy based upon the rules for a true free market and it has to reign in the whole idea of private finance creating fixed asset bubbles that always destroy the national economy.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

Speaking of Chinese land.

Here's an article on coal mine speculation boom/crash:

http://english.caixin.com/2013-08-01/100564292.html?p1

If only there were a Chinese mobile app tying in China's eleventeen jillion pawnshops to gauge interest rates, bad loans, sentiment.

I do think it is amusing that speculative booms in China are fueled by 'shadow pawn shops' run out of hotel rooms while speculative booms in the US are fueled by investment banks.

Just a naming convention?

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

I do think it is amusing that speculative booms in China are fueled by 'shadow pawn shops' run out of hotel rooms while speculative booms in the US are fueled by investment banks.

Just a naming convention?

I reckon.

Pawn shop sounds nicer than loan shark I suppose.

If there's one thing in the world for the NSA to be surveilling right now, I'd suggest intercepting mobile traffic and data from Chinese pawn shops and loan sharks might be it.

Part of me thinks this is one of the differences between the US/western GFC and China's.

Borrowing/Lending behavior can get quite silly in bubbles, but I would posit that lending/borrowing is ultimately somewhat less silly when the loans are full recourse, personally liable(for both lender/borrower) as opposed to non-recourse jingle mail.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

I'm unclear why his family fleeing Belgium has anything to do with anything.

We all know experience leads to certain world life views. His experience as a child lead him to feel unattached to any one country and their so called international sanctions. As I believe you and I can agree that the US sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea do more harm than good.

I am also unclear, if he was a US citizen in nothing but name, he had to flee the US.

He fled the US because he was going to be put in jail by a man Rudy Guliani the Florida prosecutor trying to further his career by making an example of this "traitor" Marc Rich. Rich did all of his physical commodity trading out of Switzerland where there were no sanctions against Iran or South Africa at the time. Just because he was domiciled in the US does not mean he was under US sanction law.

I can agree that Denise Rich is probably doing shady deals and I can imagine she learned a lot of those tricks from Rich himself. But because Rich did shady deals with the government of South Africa or the Shah of Iran with his Swiss domiciled commodity trading firm does not mean he should be prosecuted for treason by the US government because the US government had a policy of sanctioning countries that they disagreed with politically and tried to control those nations with said sanctions/policies.

I find it interesting that after the Shah of Iran was overthrown the incoming Iranian administration continued to do oil business with Marc Rich (through the secret oil pipeline from Iran into Israel, if my memory serves me right), a Jewish trader, when the official Iranian government position was that they did not do business with Israel or Jewish people.

[c1ue]

Re: Hudson: China's Land Question

I reckon.

Pawn shop sounds nicer than loan shark I suppose.

If there's one thing in the world for the NSA to be surveilling right now, I'd suggest intercepting mobile traffic and data from Chinese pawn shops and loan sharks might be it.

Part of me thinks this is one of the differences between the US/western GFC and China's.

Borrowing/Lending behavior can get quite silly in bubbles, but I would posit that lending/borrowing is ultimately somewhat less silly when the loans are full recourse, personally liable(for both lender/borrower) as opposed to non-recourse jingle mail.

The other point about these pawn shops, vs. our TBTF banks and investment banksters, is that in China - are these shadow banking institutions being bailed out by the CBoC vs. the ongoing bailouts by the Fed?

For me, the pawn shop phenomenon is in no way surprising. People forget that the financial environment in China is very new. Modern Chinese have no experience whatsoever with financial management, and the phenomenal growth of the past 2 decades has encouraged (and rewarded) those who took the most risks.

The example of the guy who was selling diethylene glycol as a cheap replacement for glycerin is a good example. He wasn't deliberately trying to poison anyone - in fact he actually swallowed a whole bottle of it himself to test. He just didn't understand that there are fundamental chemical differences between diethylene glycol and glycerin.

We all know experience leads to certain world life views. His experience as a child lead him to feel unattached to any one country and their so called international sanctions. As I believe you and I can agree that the US sanctions on countries like Iran, Cuba, and North Korea do more harm than good.

That may be, but as an infanct/very young child, I am far less convinced of his emotional makeup being affected by this history than if he were say, a Holocaust survivor.

He fled the US because he was going to be put in jail by a man Rudy Guliani the Florida prosecutor trying to further his career by making an example of this "traitor" Marc Rich. Rich did all of his physical commodity trading out of Switzerland where there were no sanctions against Iran or South Africa at the time. Just because he was domiciled in the US does not mean he was under US sanction law.

I certainly agree Giuliani was looking to make a name for himself, but once again it is difficult for me to see that Marc Rich was in any way innocent.

There's no question whatsoever that his actions were treasonous for an American.

Were he Swiss, and were there no Swiss laws against such activity, then you'd have a good case that he was unfairly prosecuted.

However, if he was an American citizen, then to say his actions were fine because they were originating out of a bunch of Swiss shell companies, or even real Swiss companies - I don't see that it matters.

If you initiate a drug sale through a Cayman islands shell company, you are liable for violating US drug laws if you're a US citizen. If Marc Rich was so smart, he should have renounced his US citizenship. From my view, I suspect he wanted to have his cake and eat it too - to be a US citizen with all its privileges while making tons of money violating US laws.

It wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last.

As for the sanctions vs. Iran - certainly I agree there's all sorts of shady stuff going on there. I've posted before on research which shows a curious relationship between Middle East conflicts and oil company relative market valuation (i.e. conflict results in increasing relative market valuation); I've also posted how the Iran sanctions directly benefit a billionaire farmer in California who coincidentally is heavily involved in anti-Iran think tanks.

What I don't see with Marc Rich is any form of moral justification. Did Marc Rich come out and say that the economic sanctions were immoral and wrong, or did he just look to make a ton of money?

There's a huge difference between acting on moral imperative vs. using an excuse to break the law in order to make tons of money.