Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

[reggie]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

There really are too many red flags to take Snowden at face value. I don't have a firm belief about what the truth is, but the theory that this is a CIA attempt to hurt the NSA makes a lot of sense.

Why do you care who Snowden is... I mean, really? The only reason you know about him and care about him is because the media tell you to. Do you really think the media has the public's interest at heart, or do you think the media is directing the public mind?

Just skimming the article, here's the operative paragraph...

Surveillance itself tends to achieve this over time, because when people know they are being watched and evaluated, they simplify their mental processes. They avoid many subjects, they avoid controversy, they express fewer ideas, they monitor their own responses.

The entire OP is designed to internalize fear into anyone who is not already a milk-toast brain-dead citizen and is thinking about unveiling the curtain in their area of expertise.

[aaron]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

reggie, do you see any hope for the future?

[Forrest]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

Snowdon is a story...a media extravaganza. At this point, whether Snowdon is for or against the NSA or the CIA, really has information, or doesn't, makes very little difference to the world.

Most people think he does have information. He is important only because of that information. Who does the information, supposed or otherwise, benefit?

We already knew about the Utah facility. We already know that there are camera's everywhere. We have known for years that there were people listening to our phone calls for keywords, and that everyone on the computer has access to what we say and think.

The overall effect of Snowden's revelations, true or not, is to damage America. Not that we are in good odor anywhere, or have been for some time, but in reality, the Russians, and Chinese, and everyone else knew we were spying on them, as we know they are spying on us, as a Nation, and as business innovators.

This about lessening America's overall presence in the world...and just like our nation will be further damaged by Snowden, whether true or not, our nation will be damaged by the financial mess we are all going to suffer from, and from all the incredibly stupid interventions we have made in other people's business since we came out of World War II in the Middle East, and elsewhere.

The entire world wants to see us put in our place, and have no trouble finding allies to help them in our own government. Our Administration, our Congress, our Supreme Court all are working in their own ways to make their own position better, and America suffer's for it.

Why should we think anything else of the Snowden matter?

If he is his own man, well, his acts are admirable in motive, and terribly damaging to the country in the long run. If he is a tool, it is the same.

If Snowden, or the people running him wanted to do the country good, they could show sufficent data to slam the NSA, and do no other harm. They didn't need four computers worth of information, if indeed, they had four computer's work of information. Just having the information as a failsafe would allow him to publish with minimal risk to himself, or America. It would have been his insurance policy...he would not have to reveal very much, if all he wanted to do was spread a little sunlight on something dark.

But you know, it no longer makes any difference whether Snowden is for real or not. Everyone already believes the information is out there, and what has been published, whether true or not about our information, or other country's information, has succeeded in making America less than she need be.

I believe this was the whole point.

[c1ue]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

We already knew about the Utah facility. We already know that there are camera's everywhere. We have known for years that there were people listening to our phone calls for keywords, and that everyone on the computer has access to what we say and think.

Sorry, but while you and I might have known this - the reality is that most people around the world as well as inside the US did not.

Equally having incontrovertible evidence of such activity is a huge leap past mere suspicion of it occurring.

Thus to say Snowden did nothing but confirm what we (collectively) already knew - that is false.

It is also ridiculous to say that Snowden is just there to damage the US because everyone already knows what he is saying - if that were true, then no damage would be occurring.

The damage that is occurring is happening because the US was beating up on China for cyber-espionage - when the US government knew full well it was being utmost hypocritical and then got caught.

It is occurring because the US speaks about transparency, honesty, and human rights even as it finagles a grounding of a diplomatic plane so that it can be searched for a dissident and failed.

It is occurring because every week or month, a missile flies out of the blue and blasts both its target and anyone else nearby.

If Snowden were truly a Tokyo Rose that tells lies or information nobody cares about, his impact would be minimal. The more ridiculous shenanigans the US undertakes to stop this 'impostor', the less plausible the narrative you relate becomes.

[Forrest]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

Sorry, but while you and I might have known this - the reality is that most people around the world as well as inside the US did not.

Equally having incontrovertible evidence of such activity is a huge leap past mere suspicion of it occurring.

Thus to say Snowden did nothing but confirm what we (collectively) already knew - that is false.

It is also ridiculous to say that Snowden is just there to damage the US because everyone already knows what he is saying - if that were true, then no damage would be occurring.

The damage that is occurring is happening because the US was beating up on China for cyber-espionage - when the US government knew full well it was being utmost hypocritical and then got caught.

It is occurring because the US speaks about transparency, honesty, and human rights even as it finagles a grounding of a diplomatic plane so that it can be searched for a dissident and failed.

It is occurring because every week or month, a missile flies out of the blue and blasts both its target and anyone else nearby.

If Snowden were truly a Tokyo Rose that tells lies or information nobody cares about, his impact would be minimal. The more ridiculous shenanigans the US undertakes to stop this 'impostor', the less plausible the narrative you relate becomes.

Actually, I never said Snowden did not perform a valuable service...I just don't know to whom it was provided it to, and for what reason.

I am merely noting what is becoming a reality. America is damaged. The fact that the truth needed to come out was not my point. I do not say that Snowden is an imposter...only that he could be.

However, Snowden did not have to expose all of the NSA shananigans. It is, after all, a good thing for the US to be gathering intel on everybody outside the US.

Snowden could have merely leaked the very real proof of the NSA spying on American Citizens, and held the NSA Spying on the remainder of the world to be his insurance against prosecution or assassination.


As for everyone not knowing about the NSA/CIA/FBI listening to our phone calls...strangers I meet in line at the bank, or at Costco, and at Walmart know all about being watched, and listened to, just as they know there are camera's everywhere. The information about the Utah facility has been hitting papers like the Daily Enquirer's front page on and off for years, along with many other yellow journalism rags that adorn checkout counters.

A lot of people know, and don't care.


It's nice that our propagandists...er, media, needed to cover such unflattering ideas, that incredibly, to our complete surprise, everything on our computer is open and bare for the government to look at it. Well, since Google can, and Bing, and all the companies who trace our wanderings log everywhere we go, and who we speak to, how would the government not have access?


I am glad that Snowden forced some recognition of what is really happening in our Nanny state, but if you noticed, I see very little coverage about the matter except for Snowden's current residency problems. No one is talking about the NSA, except as a reference. No one is going after the NSA, so far as I know. The romance of the brave hero breaching security to get the truth out has taken over the message, and soon the NSA may have their hand slapped by Congress, but there's so much corruption in the government now that it will probably be a token reprimand, and NSA will pretend to do things differently.

And in the end, America is still damaged. Not that we're a trustworthy nation to begin with...Wikileaks had really covered much of this ground already...but we do need a little credibility during trade negotiations and such, and Snowden's unnecessary release of information not pertinent to US Citizens rights is not a good thing.

I am disgusted at how far our nation's reputation has been dragged in the mud by the current and past Administrations lies, and gaffes, and actions, and I am sorry that more damage to America was done than was necessary by Snowdon.

But in the end, the Snowden story is merely additional camouflage for the very evident decline and fall of the United States of America, although I doubt Snowdon ever knew where his whistleblowing would take him, or the rest of us.

It is amazing how much stuff, like the Snowden affair, goes on in the news broadcasts that cover up the real problems and never touch on the fact that we are going to be in a world of hurt, literally, when the gold manipulations, and currency manipulations and market manipulations stop working, and everything has to change. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors misdirection by the governements, and their media going on worldwide to keep the people, the citizens, from knowing the real dangers we face, not just as a nation, but as a Global entity. That will be a time, perhaps, when all the people being spied on in the US, and elsewhere, begin shouting "off with their heads" to the rich and powerful, all branches of the government, and all of their enforcers, such as the NSA.

Perhaps then Snowden's contribution to America can be calculated on the positive side, but right now, our country is damaged, and held up to ridicule becasue Snowden released international material outside of a nationalist whistleblower's concerns.

[c1ue]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

I am glad that Snowden forced some recognition of what is really happening in our Nanny state, but if you noticed, I see very little coverage about the matter except for Snowden's current residency problems.

I agree with this - with the notable exception that the news on Snowden outside the US is far more extensive than within. My view is this is due to the state (or lack thereof) of the MSM in the US rather than the so called 'interest' of the populace.

Perhaps then Snowden's contribution to America can be calculated on the positive side, but right now, our country is damaged, and held up to ridicule becasue Snowden released international material outside of a nationalist whistleblower's concerns.

If you consider a false image now corrected to be more true - damage - then I agree with you.

If, on the other hand, your view is more like mine - which is that the truth is more important than any false image, then I consider what Snowden has done to be positive.

Friends of mine who are foreign all are fairly blase about this - they note that they all already have FBI files, and they have seen all sorts of similar shenanigans in their previous countries.

However, when I note that these former countries never promised life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness, at least some of the blase disappears.

I'm the last person around to ignore the prevalence of realpolitik; however, I equally note that a lofty slogan that is universally believed to be a lie is far more damaging than the sheer exercise of power.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

I don't think Snowden's background is odd at all and is probably pretty similar to a lot of the BAH employees. I'd hate to be a SysAdmin at BAH right now. Probably a lot fewer of the ones that are single or even married w/o kids have the kind of access he had. Hate to be in human resources.

I know some BAH employees. They think his background is odd. And their backgrounds more "fit the bill" so to speak. And they also are not making beyond a 4-star admiral salary.

But then it came out that the $200,000 he supposedly made was actually $122,000. Or at least that's what BAH says. So somebody's lying about his paycheck here. $122k is still a lot. But for a sysadmin consultant at BAH consultant rates year round, it's not off the table. You can see what BAH charges here. The employee is not getting all of that, some goes back to the company. So I'd imagine you'd need somewhere in the realm of $180 per hour to make that $200k/year job he says he had happen. Now there are some positions that charge that. But they all require at least a BA or BS and about a decade of experience. He had neither. I'm willing to bet that BAH is being straightforward with the $122k value, and that Snowden or Greenwald lied for whatever reason.

[jk]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

I know some BAH employees. They think his background is odd. And their backgrounds more "fit the bill" so to speak. And they also are not making beyond a 4-star admiral salary.

But then it came out that the $200,000 he supposedly made was actually $122,000. Or at least that's what BAH says. So somebody's lying about his paycheck here. $122k is still a lot. But for a sysadmin consultant at BAH consultant rates year round, it's not off the table. You can see what BAH charges here. The employee is not getting all of that, some goes back to the company. So I'd imagine you'd need somewhere in the realm of $180 per hour to make that $200k/year job he says he had happen. Now there are some positions that charge that. But they all require at least a BA or BS and about a decade of experience. He had neither. I'm willing to bet that BAH is being straightforward with the $122k value, and that Snowden or Greenwald lied for whatever reason.

overtime? double time for sundays and holidays?

[c1ue]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

I know some BAH employees. They think his background is odd. And their backgrounds more "fit the bill" so to speak. And they also are not making beyond a 4-star admiral salary.

Do these people work in similar 'secret' installations? After all, I doubt everyone in BAH works in Hawaii for the NSA.

[Forrest]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

I agree with this - with the notable exception that the news on Snowden outside the US is far more extensive than within. My view is this is due to the state (or lack thereof) of the MSM in the US rather than the so called 'interest' of the populace.



If you consider a false image now corrected to be more true - damage - then I agree with you.

If, on the other hand, your view is more like mine - which is that the truth is more important than any false image, then I consider what Snowden has done to be positive.

Friends of mine who are foreign all are fairly blase about this - they note that they all already have FBI files, and they have seen all sorts of similar shenanigans in their previous countries.

However, when I note that these former countries never promised life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness, at least some of the blase disappears.

I'm the last person around to ignore the prevalence of realpolitik; however, I equally note that a lofty slogan that is universally believed to be a lie is far more damaging than the sheer exercise of power.

I will take the truth over everything, even damage to our country, because the truth is we have not always done well as a nation. America is better than most nations, and I will not live anywhere else, but our government often does great harm for very foolish reasons, and our national reputation has suffered a great deal.

There is no administration that hasn't done harm to the US, but most of them were trying to deal with existing realities as they best could. Right now, no one is dealing with any realities in our Government in any effective way, and every little thing that happens that has a juicy story is paraded out day by day by the media to cover up all that is wrong.

The Snowden mess is yet another catastrophe not to be wasted. As to Snowden himself, exposing national information about our dealings with other countries is still less than helpful, and was unnecessary, particularly since they were the epitome of an insurance policy to protect himself.

However, if there was no way to seperate the information out, I certainly applaud the release of it in the pursuit of what we used to call when I was growing up, 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way.' I merely dislike the washing of family laundry in public.

[WildspitzE]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

I know some BAH employees. They think his background is odd. And their backgrounds more "fit the bill" so to speak. And they also are not making beyond a 4-star admiral salary.

But then it came out that the $200,000 he supposedly made was actually $122,000. Or at least that's what BAH says. So somebody's lying about his paycheck here. $122k is still a lot. But for a sysadmin consultant at BAH consultant rates year round, it's not off the table. You can see what BAH charges here. The employee is not getting all of that, some goes back to the company. So I'd imagine you'd need somewhere in the realm of $180 per hour to make that $200k/year job he says he had happen. Now there are some positions that charge that. But they all require at least a BA or BS and about a decade of experience. He had neither. I'm willing to bet that BAH is being straightforward with the $122k value, and that Snowden or Greenwald lied for whatever reason.

I saw a TV interview of Greenwald where the talking head asked him specifically about this and he addressed it. I will try to find the video as I don't exactly remember the details...

[dcarrigg]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

They work in the DC area like most other BAH employees. Sure there are clearances and sure they contract for alphabet soup agencies. But I don't know of anyone at the NCTAMS center in Hawaii specifically. But BAH has 26,000 employees. So there's a good chance a lot of folks out there have a friend or relative who is one of them.

[reggie]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

reggie, do you see any hope for the future?

ABSOLUTELY !!!!

If the intellectual & academic classes would just pull their heads out of the sand and stop allowing "conventional" system inputs to drive their understanding and orientation to the world, then we can right the ship in no time. The problem is that too many sentient human beings have temporarily forgone said sentience.

The great news is that the system's ponerization is described in acute detail if one were to simply review, with an open mind and awareness of elite double-speak, academic texts over the last 100 years. So, even the most intellectual can satisfy their need for rational logical argument, if only the time invested to review and understand the architects of this system and the science behind their techiques.

Further, an best of all, financial wealth's positive correlation with social power is diminishing quickly. Hence, new power structures are still not solidified and therefore their longterm control remains available to non-psychopathic human forces for the benefit of the masses.

Time to shutoff this current system, to stop following the current trajectory for the transition of the social, and to create our own vision that is entirely independent of the propaganda machine, which attempts to convince the public that the future is unchangeable.

We live in a period of enormous opportunity, which is why the propaganda is working so feverously at present, for the system planners understand we're currently in a period of great risk to their plans. So, it becomes even more important to block their signalling mechisms.

[vt]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

[reggie]

Re: Matrix: Who is Edward Snowden?

"You can't have a point of view in the Electronic Age"

~McLuhan