Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

[aaron]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

scam

[Chris Coles]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

If my own theories regarding the structure of the atom are eventually proven to be correct, Rossie is the first to open up the opportunities that new structure presents. In my own humble opinion; this is anything but a scam.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

If my own theories regarding the structure of the atom are eventually proven to be correct, Rossie is the first to open up the opportunities that new structure presents. In my own humble opinion; this is anything but a scam.

Well, it COULD be a scam (and I estimate only 43% chance that it isn't) - that is definitely a possibility. Rossi has a freakish past and for someone like him to discover the most important advance in the last 100 years (if not longer) is a tad improbable.

BUT - the fact is, this discovery is so incredibly important that even the slightest chance that its true makes it very very important topic of discussion.

It's also important for everyone to realize this is no longer about the credibility of Rossi.

This is about the credibility of Tom Darden (JD from Yale Law, ran cherokee, a successful environmental hedge fun for the last 20 years or so) and Cherokee.

[ASH]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

Well, it COULD be a scam (and I estimate only 43% chance that it isn't) - that is definitely a possibility. Rossi has a freakish past and for someone like him to discover the most important advance in the last 100 years (if not longer) is a tad improbable.

BUT - the fact is, this discovery is so incredibly important that even the slightest chance that its true makes it very very important topic of discussion.

It's also important for everyone to realize this is no longer about the credibility of Rossi.

This is about the credibility of Tom Darden (JD from Yale Law, ran cherokee, a successful environmental hedge fun for the last 20 years or so) and Cherokee.

I think this development is a good thing, because if some outsider is putting serious money into e-cat and expecting a return-on-investment, the chances are much better that we'll reach a definitive conclusion, instead of just sniping (as I have) about how likely this thing is to be real. (Also, it's a good thing because it isn't my money.)

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

The particularly important quote is this:

The published report by the European committee concluded, “Even by the
most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the
result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy
sources” [referring to energy output per unit of mass]. The report is
available online at http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913. In addition,
performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH
personnel and certified by an independent expert.

It means that Cherokee has publically stated that they did their homework on this. If Rossi turns out to be a fraud, you have to wonder about the chops of this Hedge Fund.

[aaron]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

Prove to me there exists this 2 billion dollar hedge fund.

I did a 2 minute search. It is bullshit as far as I can tell. They did not even TRY to look like a real hedge fund. Their web site was put together in 3 minutes. The owner of the domains and the company are operating out of a coffee shop according to google maps.

If somebody wants to do the the "whois" searches and trace them back a bit, that would be best. We could put this rossi guy down forever.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

Cherokee investment partners has been around forever. Just google it and prove it to yourself.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

Tom Darden is on the board of governors for RTI.

http://www.rti.org/page.cfm/About_RTI

[DSpencer]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

It means that Cherokee has publically stated that they did their homework on this. If Rossi turns out to be a fraud, you have to wonder about the chops of this Hedge Fund.

How many frauds does Rossi have to perpetrate in order to turn out to be a fraud? From what I can tell, this is at least his 3rd fraud-based business.

How does Cherokee make money? They seem like the type of company that could not survive without various tax credits, grants etc from the government.

In other words, it sounds like a match made in heaven.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

How many frauds does Rossi have to perpetrate in order to turn out to be a fraud? From what I can tell, this is at least his 3rd fraud-based business.

How does Cherokee make money? They seem like the type of company that could not survive without various tax credits, grants etc from the government.

In other words, it sounds like a match made in heaven.

Why don't you google it and find out before you start throwing around totally random and irresponsible speculation.

[DSpencer]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

Why don't you google it and find out before you start throwing around totally random and irresponsible speculation.

I already did. His wikipedia article mentioned 2 other technology based claims he made that never panned out. It also mentions 5 convictions related to tax fraud. There's entire websites devoted to discrediting him. For example:

http://shutdownrossi.com/

I also googled Cherokee and looked at their website. However, there's not much information to be found. As mentioned above their website is pretty sparse. What I did find seemed like the typical government supported company that could not survive in the free market without government help. For example:

"Federal and state governmental incentives can reduce capital costs by 30 to 60 percent and/or provide significant additional sources of revenue."

I use phrases like "from what I can tell" to not pretend to have some in-depth knowledge on the subject. I was being intentionally cautious to not overstate my expertise on the matter.

Since you appear to have conducted a serious investigation on these issues, why don't you fill us in on the real truth that contradicts my "totally random and irresponsible speculation"? I'll be waiting with bated breath.

[aaron]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

I already did. His wikipedia article mentioned 2 other technology based claims he made that never panned out. It also mentions 5 convictions related to tax fraud. There's entire websites devoted to discrediting him. For example:

http://shutdownrossi.com/

I also googled Cherokee and looked at their website. However, there's not much information to be found. As mentioned above their website is pretty sparse. What I did find seemed like the typical government supported company that could not survive in the free market without government help. For example:

"Federal and state governmental incentives can reduce capital costs by 30 to 60 percent and/or provide significant additional sources of revenue."

I use phrases like "from what I can tell" to not pretend to have some in-depth knowledge on the subject. I was being intentionally cautious to not overstate my expertise on the matter.

Since you appear to have conducted a serious investigation on these issues, why don't you fill us in on the real truth that contradicts my "totally random and irresponsible speculation"? I'll be waiting with bated breath.

If you do a whois search on the domain names, you find that this 2 billion dollar cherokee thing runs out of a coffee shop on google maps. The web site was made in 2 minutes.

Mr. Blaze, you would not believe how much money can be spent on these types of long cons. This is smallish (at least at this point) compared to some.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

From my own viewpoint as a bystander to the underlying debate regarding the professionalism of the participants; shouting the odds, on either side, takes the debate nowhere.

Surely the very best way forward is to set up a new team, made up from people everyone will feel they can trust; to replicate the underlying technology? Ergo, spend a little to prove the point one way or another.

Conflict of opinion must surely be replaced with data.

[DSpencer]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

From my own viewpoint as a bystander to the underlying debate regarding the professionalism of the participants; shouting the odds, on either side, takes the debate nowhere.

Surely the very best way forward is to set up a new team, made up from people everyone will feel they can trust; to replicate the underlying technology? Ergo, spend a little to prove the point one way or another.

Conflict of opinion must surely be replaced with data.

This is a great idea in theory but there are two major problems. The first is how much time/effort/money should be spent disproving every person in the world that claims to have invented or discovered something that most people think is impossible? Especially claims from someone who has reason to be doubted based on his past?

However, in this case there is enough publicity around this device that people are in fact willing to do so. The big problem is that Rossi refuses to actually permit the type of testing that would allow for independent verification. From the E-cat wiki page:

Typically during demonstrations the device was covered up.^[33] The device was not independently verified. Invited guests attended several demonstrations in Bologna in 2011.^[34][35][36] Of a January demonstration, Discovery Channel analyst Benjamin Radford wrote that "If this all sounds fishy to you, it should," and that "In many ways cold fusion is similar to perpetual motion machines. The principles defy the laws of physics, but that doesn't stop people from periodically claiming to have invented or discovered one."^[37] According to PhysOrg (11 August 2011), the demonstrations held from January to April 2011 had several flaws that compromised their credibility and Rossi had refused to perform tests that could verify his claims.^[2]

University of Bologna researchers have attended some E-Cat experiments, but only as observers. On 5 November 2011, the University of Bologna clarified that its researchers had not been involved in the demonstrations and that none of the experiments took place at the university. Rossi had signed a contract with the university, but the contract was terminated and no research was done because Rossi didn't make the first payment.^{[38][39][40][41][42]}

Skeptic Ian Bryce believes that the E-cat is misconnected during demonstrations, and that the power attributed to fusion is supplied to the device through the earth wire.^[43][44] Dick Smith offered Rossi one million dollars to demonstrate that the E-Cat system worked as claimed, while the power through the earth wire was also being measured, which Rossi refused.^[45][46] Peter Thieberger, a senior physicist at Brookhaven National Laboratory, said it would be very difficult for this misconnection to happen by accident and that the issue could only be cleared with a fully independent test.^[43]

Another demonstration on 6 October 2011 reportedly lasted for about eight hours.^[47][48][49] Roland Pettersson, retired Associate Professor from the University of Uppsala, who witnessed it said "I'm convinced that this works, but there is still room for more measurements".^[18]
On 28 October 2011 the unit was "customer tested" and was said to release 2,635 kWh during five and a half hours of self-sustained mode, an average power of 479 kilowatts – just under half the promised power of one megawatt. Independent observers were not allowed to watch the measurements or make their own, and the plant remained connected to a power supply during the test allegedly to supply power to the fans and the water pumps.^{[50][51][52][53]}

I bolded the parts that should make any rational person more than a little suspicious.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We're all free to believe what we want but I'm not at all convinced.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Transmutation occuring in CFL light bulbs

This is a great idea in theory but there are two major problems. The first is how much time/effort/money should be spent disproving every person in the world that claims to have invented or discovered something that most people think is impossible? Especially claims from someone who has reason to be doubted based on his past?

However, in this case there is enough publicity around this device that people are in fact willing to do so. The big problem is that Rossi refuses to actually permit the type of testing that would allow for independent verification. From the E-cat wiki page:



I bolded the parts that should make any rational person more than a little suspicious.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We're all free to believe what we want but I'm not at all convinced.

ANY competent industrial artisan should be able to take the basic premis and working with that and the published patent specifications; produce a working model.