NSA monitoring all Verizon users

[lakedaemonian]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Former CIA employee Phillip Agee might be relevant in this current case.

That guy did a LOT of damage to national intelligence assets during the cold war and didn't get successfully prosecuted.

Persecuted yes, prosecuted no.

[don]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Former CIA employee Phillip Agee might be relevant in this current case.

That guy did a LOT of damage to national intelligence assets during the cold war and didn't get successfully prosecuted.

Persecuted yes, prosecuted no.

Formal prosecution validates what the whistle blower exposed, with the potential for more. See the Gary Webb case for how that's avoided.

[don]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Contemporary Children's Classics . . .

[Thailandnotes]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

ellsberg on snowden...

In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back a key part of what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.

Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought over 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the US constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that unconstitutionally sweeping warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, almost totally deferential to executive requests. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp."

For the president then to say that there is judicial oversight is nonsense – as is the alleged oversight function of the intelligence committees in Congress. Not for the first time – as with issues of torture, kidnapping, detention, assassination by drones and death squads –they have shown themselves to be thoroughly co-opted by the agencies they supposedly monitor. They are also black holes for information that the public needs to know.

The fact that congressional leaders were "briefed" on this and went along with it, without any open debate, hearings, staff analysis, or any real chance for effective dissent, only shows how broken the system of checks and balances is in this country.

Obviously, the United States is not now a police state. But given the extent of this invasion of people's privacy, we do have the full electronic and legislative infrastructure of such a state. If, for instance, there was now a war that led to a large-scale anti-war movement – like the one we had against the war in Vietnam – or, more likely, if we suffered one more attack on the scale of 9/11, I fear for our democracy. These powers are extremely dangerous.

There are legitimate reasons for secrecy, and specifically for secrecy about communications intelligence. That's why Bradley Mannning and I – both of whom had access to such intelligence with clearances higher than top-secret – chose not to disclose any information with that classification. And it is why Edward Snowden has committed himself to withhold publication of most of what he might have revealed.

But what is not legitimate is to use a secrecy system to hide programs that are blatantly unconstitutional in their breadth and potential abuse. Neither the president nor Congress as a whole may by themselves revoke the fourth amendment – and that's why what Snowden has revealed so far was secret from the American people.

In 1975, Senator Frank Church spoke of the National Security Agency in these terms:

"I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return."

The dangerous prospect of which he warned was that America's intelligence gathering capability – which is today beyond any comparison with what existed in his pre-digital era – "at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left."

That has now happened. That is what Snowden has exposed, with official, secret documents. The NSA, FBI and CIA have, with the new digital technology, surveillance powers over our own citizens that the Stasi – the secret police in the former "democratic republic" of East Germany – could scarcely have dreamed of. Snowden reveals that the so-called intelligence community has become the United Stasi of America.

So we have fallen into Senator Church's abyss. The questions now are whether he was right or wrong that there is no return from it, and whether that means that effective democracy will become impossible. A week ago, I would have found it hard to argue with pessimistic answers to those conclusions.

But with Edward Snowden having put his life on the line to get this information out, quite possibly inspiring others with similar knowledge, conscience and patriotism to show comparable civil courage – in the public, in Congress, in the executive branch itself – I see the unexpected possibility of a way up and out of the abyss.

Pressure by an informed public on Congress to form a select committee to investigate the revelations by Snowden and, I hope, others to come might lead us to bring NSA and the rest of the intelligence community under real supervision and restraint and restore the protections of the bill of rights.

Snowden did what he did because he recognised the NSA's surveillance programs for what they are: dangerous, unconstitutional activity. This wholesale invasion of Americans' and foreign citizens' privacy does not contribute to our security; it puts in danger the very liberties we're trying to protect.

[c1ue]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Evidently intelligence services concluded that the best way to go after the terrorists is to monitor everyone and look for key words and other hints to discover patterns that may allow a predictive power, as well as find the contacts very early in the process. This increases the odds of avoiding a major terrorist attack and dismantling their networks.

No, the method chosen was the easiest. Not the best, unless you consider the outright violation of mass numbers of constitutional rights, 'best'.

This is at least consistent - blowing up wedding parties with Predator drone fired missiles is also 'easiest'.

The problem with monitoring everyone is that while almost everyone is not a terrorist, a small number may be planning or committing other crimes. Do you give this information to local law enforcement? Certainly they would benefit and make communities safer. Many citizens may support this once educated of the "benefits".

As has been shown repeatedly in open warfare (Churchill and Coventry), as well as anecdotally in the Vietnam war with NSA field intercepts, it is extremely unlikely intelligence gathered on secondary (read irrelevant) issues would ever be revealed, because this risks exposing the source of the intelligence.

Former CIA employee Phillip Agee might be relevant in this current case.

That guy did a LOT of damage to national intelligence assets during the cold war and didn't get successfully prosecuted.

Persecuted yes, prosecuted no.

If Snowden reveals the names of US government agents in a published book as Agee did, perhaps then the insinuation above is substantiated. As Snowden has specifically stated he has no intention of doing so, it is unclear what you are trying to say here.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

If Snowden reveals the names of US government agents in a published book as Agee did, perhaps then the insinuation above is substantiated. As Snowden has specifically stated he has no intention of doing so, it is unclear what you are trying to say here.

Philip Agee DID release a lot of information(particularly officers/agents) that was damaging to US foreign intelligence collection efforts.

And that doesn't include any non-open source damage he caused from direct cooperation with Cuban intelligence and indirect cooperation with intelligence sharing with the Soviets.

BUT he largely avoided prosecution(but not persecution)

Agee died free-ish, albeit in Cuba.

He was able to travel to Western Europe(hindered in the UK and other countries by US political action), mostly Germany as well as with relative freedom to South America.

Far more serious damage to US intelligence(thus far), but consequences for Agee were quite minimal considering the likely damage caused.

But that was a different time, with far fewer and less robust extradition treaties.

Agee represents a precedent for Snowden, albeit an apples(Agee lots of damage, but less international cooperation on these issues) to oranges(Snowden limited damage thus far, but considerably more international cooperation on these issues) one.

[Woodsman]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

[flintlock]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Are the serious bad guys really posting their plans to set off a dirty bomb on Facebook or twitter? Do they really blab on about biological war on their smartphones? Lets face it, at best they will mostly catch stupid small fry's like the Boston Marathon bombers. While still horrible, these type incidents do not justify throwing away all our privacy. This is a continuation of the current trend to punish everyone for the sins of a few. Our leaders are either incredibly dense or have an ulterior motive.

[Jam]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

And now he is missing

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22850901

An ex-CIA employee who leaked details of US top-secret phone and internet surveillance has disappeared from his hotel in Hong Kong.
Edward Snowden, 29, checked out from his hotel on Monday. His whereabouts are unknown, but he is believed to be still in Hong Kong.

[jk]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Are the serious bad guys really posting their plans to set off a dirty bomb on Facebook or twitter? Do they really blab on about biological war on their smartphones? Lets face it, at best they will mostly catch stupid small fry's like the Boston Marathon bombers. While still horrible, these type incidents do not justify throwing away all our privacy. This is a continuation of the current trend to punish everyone for the sins of a few. Our leaders are either incredibly dense or have an ulterior motive.

they didn't get the boston marathon bombers during the planning, and in spite of russian inquiries pointing to them. the gov't is apparently using its investigative and subpoena powers to find leakers, i.e. to protect itself, not us.

and obama's stance is that these are important issues to discuss in a democracy, and he wants to arrest the man who made them public.

[metalman]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

Are the serious bad guys really posting their plans to set off a dirty bomb on Facebook or twitter? Do they really blab on about biological war on their smartphones?

duh... course not. bad guys hide behind 3 proxy servers... nsa is building a monster computer to bust aes...

Lets face it, at best they will mostly catch stupid small fry's like the Boston Marathon bombers.

er... didn't catch them!

While still horrible, these type incidents do not justify throwing away all our privacy. This is a continuation of the current trend to punish everyone for the sins of a few. Our leaders are either incredibly dense or have an ulterior motive.

how come no terror attacks & stasi spying defense in germany?

a. history
b. germany not doing this

[astonas]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

how come no terror attacks & stasi spying defense in germany?

a. history
b. germany not doing this

As much as I'd like to agree with you on this one, there has been tremendous uproar about the possibility of drone use in Germany:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-904774.html

(Of course, the latest round of controversy has mostly been about the cost associated with canceling the program too slowly.)

[metalman]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

As much as I'd like to agree with you on this one, there has been tremendous uproar about the possibility of drone use in Germany:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-904774.html

(Of course, the latest round of controversy has mostly been about the cost associated with canceling the program too slowly.)

no, no, no... the uproar in germany was not the public po'd about the gov't blowing up wedding parties in 3rd world countries it was about pissing tax dollars away on drone r&d & losing the international arms sales competition to make the best drones to use to blow up wedding parties in 3rd world countries.

how embarrassing. isn't this the country that invented this 70 yrs ago?

[reggie]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

The propaganda machine is working to perfection. This thread confirms that. Fear is being internalized, self-censorship deeply embedded.

Too bad this is just not how the system works at all. Too bad the whistleblows are more propagandists part of the same system. Too bad no one steps back from the machine's constant flow of outputs long enough to think. I guess too busy discussing the latest wave of signals. So very dissappointing.

For those that bothered to watch and analyze the 1960's Prisoner series, remember that WE are No. 1, and that it is we who create our future, not anyone else, no matter how it may seem.

P.S. By the way, the Snowden story is Fake. (it's purpose is make you think that the same thing could happen to you).

P.P.S. People's lack of brain synapse management and sensory filtering scares me a helluva lot more than a drone or any of these media "stories".

Please feel free to return to the regularly scheduled dose of media consumption.

[Woodsman]

Re: NSA monitoring all Verizon users

The name "Snowden" kept irking me last night until another name popped up - Yossarian. See this thread.