BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

[flintlock]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

There's enough tradesmen out there to do the jobs that are out there. Adding more people to it will just saturate it even more. I don't care if it is construction or maintenance. I have worked electrical and it just isn't there. So many people buy into this stupid hype that there is a skilled labor shortage and that the sky is the limit with the trades. You'll be as fucked with trades as you will be fucked with doing anything else.

Can't get enough qualified workers? Yeah, can't get enough ******* illegal immigrants that will work for pennies.

Well I have to agree with your last sentence. You think Obama is going to help with this any better than Bush did? So you need to focus on what illegal immigrants cant do as well. Jobs that require excellent communication skills combined with technical ability. Jobs that are not using just your back but your brain. There are lots of niche trades out there, but you wont find them advertised in the local help wanted section.

I can tell you for a fact, in my area if you have experience, and can present yourself well, you can be hired and start the same day in the service sector. I'm not talking just bending pipe and slinging wire but a real technician who can troubleshoot, deal directly with customers, handle paperwork, and yes, even sell a little. Sure there are plenty of construction workers. But what constitutes being called an electrician today is sort of a joke. I wish I could post some of the ridiculous pictures I take of work done by supposed electricians. I have hundreds of pictures. 90% wiring homes around here have never heard of Ohm's Law much less know how to use it. Never picked up a code book either, just monkey see monkey do training.

A former employee of mine was just hired by a large HVAC company to do electrical for them. The interview lasted all of two minutes. When they found out his experience level, that he was clean cut, and could speak intelligently, they hired him on the spot, gave him a truck to drive home, smart phone, tablet, and all the overtime he can handle. He isnt even licensed.

Labor markets are local of course. And if you dont have a lot of experience, (5 yrs min) that can be tough. Not saying its easy, but if you already have the skills, I wouldn't advise giving up. But honestly, a mother the other day asked me about her son getting into the business and I advised her there are probably better choices.

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Labor markets are local of course. And if you dont have a lot of experience, (5 yrs min) that can be tough. Not saying its easy, but if you already have the skills, I wouldn't advise giving up. But honestly, a mother the other day asked me about her son getting into the business and I advised her there are probably better choices.

Thanks for all your valuable insight on this subject, flintlock! If you were advising a person finishing high school in the next few years, not interested in college, but considering a trade, which area would you recommend? What areas are at this time identifiable as potentially growing?

[lektrode]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Thanks for all your valuable insight on this subject, flintlock! If you were advising a person finishing high school in the next few years, not interested in college, but considering a trade, which area would you recommend? What areas are at this time identifiable as potentially growing?

while plumbers and electricians (along with just about every other skilled-labor trade, as long as people live indoors and need others to perform services they cant do themselves) will always be in demand - esp those with enough savvy/smarts to do more than drill holes in 2x4's and drag romex thru em - and otherwise being in 100% agreement with flintlock - methinks refrigeration technology is still in a relative infancy - increases in efficiency have only fairly recently started to percolate thru to the market(s) for this equipment - esp in sophisticated control systems - but new uses for waste heat reclaim as well as HVAC will make the nearterm future quite bright methinks (and me hopes ;) and EXCITING, even.

refrigeration being - IMHO (typing as one of em) - a top-of-the-trades-foodchain skillset - and without which practically none of our modern lifestyle could survive for more than a day or 2 without - would indicate - to me - that pursuit of education/experience/skills in this area should be quite rewarding - it has for me - until just recently anyway - even in the boat biz, where i bill upwards of 80bux/hour (tho not nearly as many hours as i'd like these daze, it was as much as i could stand - as a sole-proprietor - just a few years ago)

a refrigeration technician or 'mechanic' as we're referred to - needing all the skills/knowledge of an electrician AND a plumber, with various aspects of physics thrown in, just to keep things interesting - such as liquid/gas pressures, volumes, velocities, mass, superheat, temperature deltas etc etc etc - can be fairly mind-boggling, not to mention challenging, esp in trouble-shooting.

so if i was asked to recommend a trade for further consideration, that would be my .02

your mileage may vary....

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Thanks lektrode! You make a pretty strong case. It sounds like the HVAC field is likely to not only be rewarding financially, but also sufficiently challenging to be remain interesting and engaging.

It also fits the macroeconomic forecast of Peak Cheap Oil fairly well. As additional efficiency and waste heat reclamation get more important, one can quite reasonably anticipate a boom in conversions to newer technology. And if I'm remembering right, we're not exactly near Carnot efficiency in most existing technologies, so there's room for continuous improvement (at least in theory) as efficiency becomes more prized.

It's also clear that the required skill set makes this a more immigration resistant field (especially if one is willing to study legal/building codes) and is also fundamentally impossible to export, so the pool of competition is going to be restricted to the most skilled domestic workers who chose the trade.

Not a bad place to be at all!

BadJuju, you said you're trained as an electrician. Do you suspect your training would be enough to try for "stretch" positions that might allow you to pick up some of the adjacent HVAC skills on-the-job? Sometimes small business owners are willing to take a risk on things like that if one comes in with the right attitude and work ethic. You certainly seem bright enough to pick things up pretty quickly...

(By the way, if one is trying for a position that requires that sort of risk for the employer, stopping by in person instead of sending in a resume blind makes a huge difference. It really lets people see the attitude that will allow them to mentally fill in some gaps on the resume with future learning.)

[LazyBoy]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

I remember talking to a young Plumber's helper on a job about 6 years ago. He was complaining about the low pay and was ready to quit and try something else. I advised him to stick with it. I knew the plumber he worked for and told him if he would be patient and learn the trade from Jim, he would be well rewarded. Well I ran into this guy last week at Home Depot. He started his own business last year and already has 5 employees and is going like gangbusters. But I chalk up a lot of that success to his great attitude. Just a very likable, friendly, positive kid. He's still not 30 yet.

I assume we don't need 5 times more plumbing outfits every 6 years. So your success story applies to 1 in 5? More? Less? What happened to the other plumber's helpers who were working for Jim 6 years ago? How much do the tradesmen who aren't entrepreneurial business types with numerous other outstanding qualities make? Can they support families?

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

I assume we don't need 5 times more plumbing outfits every 6 years. So your success story applies to 1 in 5? More? Less? What happened to the other plumber's helpers who were working for Jim 6 years ago? How much do the tradesmen who aren't entrepreneurial business types with numerous other outstanding qualities make? Can they support families?

It seems that any free-market economy will necessarily favor "entrepreneurial business types" over those who aren't. For this reason, whether one has a trade or wears a white collar, the desire to learn about business creation is increasingly no longer an option, but a requirement.

A lightly- or un-regulated commercial market carries implicitly the requirement of caveat emptor. In the same way, a free market for labor similarly and necessarily will carry the implicit requirement to understand and be willing to play the game of business.

Thus the only way to help those unwilling or unable to play that game is to impose regulations on the labor market. Whether one finds this idea appealing or repellant, it seems apparent to the realist that regulations are unlikely in the current political environment to be altered in any way that favors tradesmen, rather than executives and bankers.

Consequently, as unfair as it may seem, the only realistic option availabe to the individual today is to take on some of that entrepreneurial burden, whether one enjoys embracing it or not. As you point out, it will be increasingly challenging to support a family otherwise. For those simply unable to do so, I do not envision a future as bright as the past.

That may not be the picture of America we envisioned even a few years ago, with a stable middle class. But it does appear destined to be the America of the future, unless something dramatic happens. Since options to make something dramatic happen are limited, most would be better advised to simply adapt.

[LazyBoy]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Consequently, as unfair as it may seem, the only realistic option availabe to the individual today is to take on some of that entrepreneurial burden, whether one enjoys embracing it or not.

I agree with everything you wrote. But I want to emphasize that while it might be a good option for an individual, it doesn't scale for the population.

Everyone can't run businesses. Someone has to be the employees.

Hypothetical situation: If I had a nephew who had average intelligence, a good work ethic and no entrepreneurial spirit or business aptitude, what career path could I suggest that would support a family? What if we assumed a working spouse with similar qualities?

[aaron]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Only children of the wealthy deserve to receive an education. The others deserve debt servitude.
Bankers are doing god's work. Students are takers.
College education has no value besides $$$
while almost every other country in the world has affordable higher education, America knows better!



how far we have fallen!

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

I agree with everything you wrote. But I want to emphasize that while it might be a good option for an individual, it doesn't scale for the population.

Everyone can't run businesses. Someone has to be the employees.

Hypothetical situation: If I had a nephew who had average intelligence, a good work ethic and no entrepreneurial spirit or business aptitude, what career path could I suggest that would support a family? What if we assumed a working spouse with similar qualities?

I agree. It seems like it is the "employee" class that is being left out in the cold as we move forward. The best advice I can give is try not to be in it, because I don't see a mechanism that will suddenly reverse this trend.

But even as an employee, the strong work ethic you describe can be very attractive to employers, especially if it is correctly focused from early in one's career.

I sometimes note that there are individuals who manage to gain "five years worth" of experience in a single year, and others that can take five years to get the equivalent experience of one. To have a career, and not just a job, you have to combine that work ethic with enough curiosity to constantly be learning and growing. Without that, you can wind up working very hard, while someone else gets all the benefits. That may be good for an employer (if only in the very short term) but it is generally never good for you.

So if I were to give advice to an individual such as you describe, for example, I would suggest selecting work not only based on what it pays today, but also to consider what marketable skills a given job can teach. Then, keep your eyes open, and never stopping learning new things. It doesn't have to just be entrepreneurship or business skills, it can be whatever their field of choice has to offer. As long as your nephew continually seeks to find a way to actively avoid stagnation, he's likely to be in the top fraction of his field sooner or later. And there is always demand for the best, in any field

[lektrode]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

I agree. It seems like it is the "employee" class that is being left out in the cold as we move forward....
.......
...
So if I were to give advice to an individual such as you describe, for example, I would suggest selecting work not only based on what it pays today, but also to consider what marketable skills a given job can teach.

my tack was always to get jobs that add something to the resume, vs jobs that might be 'fun' (or allow one to meet lots of... um.... chix ;)

that along with being self-employed and ALWAYS ANSWER THE PHONE + show up + do what you say you will, when you say you will.

always seemed to work for me - well... up til just recently, anyway.

[flintlock]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Thanks for all your valuable insight on this subject, flintlock! If you were advising a person finishing high school in the next few years, not interested in college, but considering a trade, which area would you recommend? What areas are at this time identifiable as potentially growing?

I agree with lectrode, HVAC is a promising field. That would be my first choice as well. Requires a little bit more on the ball that your average wire slinger, and that is really what you are always looking for in a profession, to be able to stand out from the crowd. Plenty of average HVAC techs out there but the good ones can really shine. I've always felt that while new installations/construction can be lucrative, servicing and repairing stuff is what is in highest demand.

I agree that ever increasing energy costs will put more demand on this field to upgrade equipment and insulation, etc.

The work is somewhat seasonal,( at least around here) so you have to be content to work long hot days, be responsive to customers needs, and not mind a hot sweaty job. But the rewards can be pretty good. I know two mostly residential service contractors who work their butts off during the summer and piddle around most of the rest of the year. Both have told me they earn in excess of $120,000 year. And these are small time operators, 2 or 3 people or less! The real demand is for honest techs who are not just out for the quick buck. The guys I know shoot straight and have lifetime customers, which is where the effort really pays off. The referrals they generate blow away any advertising campaign and the pressure to be low bid all the time. They are not out to be the biggest and baddest, or have their picture up on billboards, but rather just to earn a good living and be their own boss.

HVAC is a good field for several reasons. You make the money on the parts, not just labor. Joe customer cannot simply walk in and buy the parts in most cases, even if he knew how to properly install it. Its human nature that some people don't like the "help" making more money than they do. Most have no idea the markup on the equipment and so can save face and not have their ego threatened. I know it shouldn't matter, but this is a fact of life.

When its hot or cold, people want their comfort NOW! Nuff said. People with a light that won't work or a leaky faucet, can wait. Nobody waits on the AC repair in July, even if it means skipping the car payment.

Another reason is it is not something everyone wants to do, especially in hot climates. Lets face it, its hot as hell up in some attics, even outside. And guess when most systems fail? In Atlanta, there simply are not enough people smart enough to learn the trade willing to suffer in the heat. We have all grown so accustomed to physical comfort that you still will see a guy perfectly capable of doing HVAC work settling for a low paying job because it has AC and you don't have to sweat. Scarcity causes prices/wages to rise.

Relatively low barriers to entry. Do your time as an apprentice, (4 yrs?) pass the test, buy an old van, establish a relationship with a supplier and you are in business. A buddy of mine learned it in the Navy and was out working in the field by age 22. By 30 he was self-employed. It takes a little money to get up and started but not anything like many other businesses. You don't have to start out working on huge jobs. Just work your way into whatever you want to do.

All this goes x2 for commercial and industrial applications, where time is money and the emphasis is on getting it running again, not pinching pennies.
There are simply so many bad actors out there now in the service industry, that there is quite an upside potential compared to other industries. Just remember though," Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered." I've seen more than one company's downfall when they get greedy and start ripping off customers and doing unnecessary work.

[wayiwalk]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Very interesting you speak highly of the HVAC field. The CADD operator in our office just resigned last month, to join a start up HVAC business. I am confident that he will be successful. As a CADD person, he was without doubt the most efficient drafter I have worked with in 25+ years of engineering. What it took the typical drafter hours to do, he'd get done in minutes. Either he simply had a work ethic and focus that most other drafters lacked, or just had the knack of understanding in 3D how things were to be presented on paper because he "got it" in his head, or a combination of both. It didn't matter if the drawigns were for mechancial/pipes/fittings, larger facility layouts, or civil drawings. Also a car-nut so I believe he has good natural mechanical apptitude. Either way, these are skills that will come in good use in supporting HVAC projects.

[lektrode]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

the primary attractiveness of the AC/R trade, in particular is: not every tom/dick/harry with a toolbox can just walk in and undercut or replace ya... and - as mentioned by astonas - none of the trades, in general, can be outsourced to the 3rd world. (or a youtube video)

that and the bigger the outfit, the higher their rates = opportunity for those inclined to sole proprietorship (at least until he gets too old, or the med ins premiums krank up...)

my fave part of, say, small boat systems, that are sold as "no need for special skills, tools or licenses" is that all works fine, right up to the moment that the 'quick connects' dont connect quickly, or have leaked even 25% of the refrigerant charge - then you _will_ need all of the above and try finding someone on a friday before a 3day weekend... (why i always answered the phone)