BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

[shiny!]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

We're in a networked war now. Unfortunately, the one who controls the networked wins network wars. Only way for the public to escape this one is to pull the plug on the network and let the parasite collapse (insert Hudson's FIRE host parasite analogy here)

Do you mean unplugging our computers? That would result in being dependent on the MSM to find out what's going on. How would that be better? I don't think that would make the parasite collapse. It would only make people more dependent on the lies of the MSM, or put them out of touch completely. Most of my neighbors don't have computers; I am frequently appalled at their level of ignorance of what's going on in the world.

Granted though, I get more productive work done around the house on the rare day when my computer is unplugged...

[jiimbergin]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Aha! I had to click through a bunch of links to find "the rub." The ROI quoted is apparently calculated as the difference over 30 years of the income the student could receive as a college graduate in that field versus a high-school graduate. However, it doesn't seem to account for the unemployment rate of graduates nor those who are working in a job that doesn't require a college degree (currently over 50%!). The ROI for those graduates is, what, -100%?

It also takes the college expenditures as net, not the total outlays over time, including loan payments, which can be considerably more. For example, Duke is quoted in the article with an ROI of 6.4%, but when college loan rates go up to 6.8%, you lose! I also don't think it accounts for lost or diminished wages for the high school graduate during the 4 years he/she would have been in college.

Bear in mind, I have two masters' degrees, one in engineering and one in ministry, so I'm not totally down on education, just believe that it has to depend on the child, what he or she wants to do, and his or her abilities.

thanks, was the ministry later in life?

[flintlock]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

This report was just on the news tonight. Coppin State College in Baltimore, over a 10 year period, had its enrollment fall 3%, but they increased faculty 49% and administrators 92%.

I noticed some similar results with smaller state colleges around here. Shrinking enrollment yet costs keep going up! This system is only possible with EZ credit. Some of these colleges cater to very marginal students, most who will need 100% financing to attend. In my opinion, they are the college equivalent of Rent to Own furniture stores. People pay way too much for their own good only because they are lured in by ridiculous credit terms and are convinced they really "NEED" it.

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

I think you've nailed it.

I frequently get asked by students for career advice, and for some of them, the best answer really is "drop out and be a plumber." I've given that and similar advice before.

I think that a lot has to do with the motivation of the individual. If what they really want is a six-figure income, but they hate the structure of school, don't like doing engineering or science, but are motivated, have good technical intuition, and some business savvy, they could often do much better by dropping out.

If someone loves the actual doing of engineering or science, they won't mind putting in the work, either in school or afterwards, and so they can be quite successful in that sphere. But I try not to advise people to study something they won't enjoy doing because there's nominally more money in it. Too often that path means they increasingly hate the work, don't do it well, and thus wind up being at the lower end of the income range in their field when they do finish, soundly outperformed by those who decided that plumbing or the like was something they enjoyed doing, and thus could do very well. Average salary statistics mask the fact that salary ranges can be quite large. A bad engineer (and by definition, 50% are below average, right) doesn't make the mean.

So it's more about the fit for a given student, rather than the value of any specific degree or program. A culture that pretends that a degree program is best for everyone winds up mis-allocating a lot of good talent, and creating much unnecessary frustration.

I mostly talk to engineering and science students, so the relative value of a history degree seldom comes up. But even for the technically talented, college is not necessarily always the right option, let alone graduate school.

[BadJuju]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

There aren't any jobs for tradesmen. So dropping out and becoming one isn't going to help anyone.

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

There aren't any jobs for tradesmen. So dropping out and becoming one isn't going to help anyone.

Notice I included business savvy in the list of requirements. My understanding is that those who do best do so by starting a small company in response to an identified need in a given community. If there aren't jobs available, you have to find a way to create your own, right?

[BadJuju]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Good luck building the capital for that. Also, good luck getting the licenses without already being established in the trades.

[astonas]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Good luck building the capital for that. Also, good luck getting the licenses without already being established in the trades.

I don't know all the details, but I do know some people who have managed to do both. It's not a path for everyone of course, but it is an option for some. Again, career advice is always a personal matter, and meaningless in the abstract. What is good advice for one person can be bad advice for another.

[BadJuju]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Perhaps so. Still, nothing's a good bet these days. You go to college and outside of a few disciplines, you are screwed. Don't go to college and you have to compete with everyone + the people that went to college.

[flintlock]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

There aren't any jobs for tradesmen. So dropping out and becoming one isn't going to help anyone.

So not true. There is always a demand for good ones. Not talking about boom town market, itenerant, semi-skilled laborers, but real professionals. Stuff breaks, it has to be maintained. Unfortunately we've been conditioned to think in terms of new construction only, and that anyone with a tool belt is a "skilled tradesman". The bar is set pretty low. Be able to exceed it and you will find work. At least around here.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story/us-...rowth-19155674

[BadJuju]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

There's enough tradesmen out there to do the jobs that are out there. Adding more people to it will just saturate it even more. I don't care if it is construction or maintenance. I have worked electrical and it just isn't there. So many people buy into this stupid hype that there is a skilled labor shortage and that the sky is the limit with the trades. You'll be as fucked with trades as you will be fucked with doing anything else.

Can't get enough qualified workers? Yeah, can't get enough ******* illegal immigrants that will work for pennies.

[flintlock]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Good luck building the capital for that. Also, good luck getting the licenses without already being established in the trades.

Not saying its easy, but I started out with a $3000 Van and the few tools I had managed to accumulate. I cut grass on days I didnt have any other work. Yes, you need to find a job and apprentice for a while(4 years in my case) in order to qualify for licensing but at least you are getting paid to learn. Of course job availability can vary wildly in different areas. Dont rule out some small business to work for that may not pay as well, or offer as much potential upfront. Remember its also easier to stand out from the crowd. Think service industry trades vs new construction and you may find better long term prospects, free from the feast or famine so common in construction. Factories need constant maintenance and upgrades. Retail businesses always have something going wrong and pay good money to get it fixed asap.

I remember talking to a young Plumber's helper on a job about 6 years ago. He was complaining about the low pay and was ready to quit and try something else. I advised him to stick with it. I knew the plumber he worked for and told him if he would be patient and learn the trade from Jim, he would be well rewarded. Well I ran into this guy last week at Home Depot. He started his own business last year and already has 5 employees and is going like gangbusters. But I chalk up a lot of that success to his great attitude. Just a very likable, friendly, positive kid. He's still not 30 yet.

[shiny!]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Not saying its easy, but I started out with a $3000 Van and the few tools I had managed to accumulate. I cut grass on days I didnt have any other work. Yes, you need to find a job and apprentice for a while(4 years in my case) in order to qualify for licensing but at least you are getting paid to learn. Of course job availability can vary wildly in different areas. Dont rule out some small business to work for that may not pay as well, or offer as much potential upfront. Remember its also easier to stand out from the crowd. Think service industry trades vs new construction and you may find better long term prospects, free from the feast or famine so common in construction. Factories need constant maintenance and upgrades. Retail businesses always have something going wrong and pay good money to get it fixed asap. I remember talking to a young Plumber's helper on a job about 6 years ago. He was complaining about the low pay and was ready to quit and try something else. I advised him to stick with it. I knew the plumber he worked for and told him if he would be patient and learn the trade from Jim, he would be well rewarded. Well I ran into this guy last week at Home Depot. He started his own business last year and already has 5 employees and is going like gangbusters. But I chalk up a lot of that success to his great attitude. Just a very likable, friendly, positive kid. He's still not 30 yet.

There will always be a need for plumbers, electricians, roofers, HVAC repairmen, etc...

I got rear-ended at a red light back in 2005. Insurance medical payout was $5000. I used it to stake myself in starting an e-commerce store selling natural perfumes to people with multiple chemical sensitivity. Many people like perfumes but can't tolerate the petrochemicals in commercial perfumes. I studied natural perfumery as well as SEO, HTML and CSS. Wrote my own site from scratch in a text editor. Started coming in at the top of page 1 in Google and Yahoo for my niche.

That business didn't make me rich, but it gave us some much needed extra income beyond my husband's teaching salary and my secretarial wages. We applied all that money to our retirement. It's much easier to succeed at a new business if you have other income or resources to live on at first. Don't try to live off the new business for the first few years. Pour your profits back into the business to grow it.

[reggie]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Reggie, I've been meaning to ask you, do you think the internet was set up explicitly as a complex systems experiment in social control? Sometimes I think I can follow you. Other times, I'm lost. I'm not an expert in the field, although I am familiar with the basic concepts and cast of characters.

Of course.

A global feedback control system was required in order to deploy the behavioral techniques of second-order Cybernetics science goals largely set forth at the Macy Conferences of the 40's & 50's. It's all extremely well documented, albeit, some of the publications are difficult, or expensive, to access.

Did no one notice that the Internet was so-called launched around the same time (circa 1995) that GATT was ratified by the Clinton Administration unleashing the China tidal wave. Contrary to all those that like to think noghing is planned, this was well coordinated.

[reggie]

Re: BOOK REVIEW: ‘Is College Worth It?’

Do you mean unplugging our computers? That would result in being dependent on the MSM to find out what's going on. How would that be better? I don't think that would make the parasite collapse. It would only make people more dependent on the lies of the MSM, or put them out of touch completely. Most of my neighbors don't have computers; I am frequently appalled at their level of ignorance of what's going on in the world.

Granted though, I get more productive work done around the house on the rare day when my computer is unplugged...

Yes, we need to unplug from all external sources of media and return to face-to-face discussions with others who we trust.

We've allowed an external system to disintermediate the creation of neural networks within our own brains. The architecture of these neural networks are in-effect filters for how humans perceive every sensory input. Perception control is a key element and precursor to decision control. (Academia is a great institution for establishing common frames..... this is why companies like Google hired from only certain universities during its high growth period... they had to be sure they weren't hiring people who would question what they were building)

What you label ignorant when referring to your neighbors, I call individualized worldview perception. (check out "Skinner Box").

In short, the Parasite will most definitely die because 2nd Order Cybernetic formulas fail when the feedback loops are severed or the noise-to-signal ratio increases beyond the system's ability to decipher the signal from the noise. There are formulas for this crapola. RAND & DSA employ peple that spend their entire careers modelling this junk.