Boston - the Russian angle

[cobben]

The Chechens are special. The whole population was deported to Siberia by Stalin, on pretext that they had collaborated with the Nazis. While in Siberia, they took command over the local soviet authorities, who were afraid of them, and continued their traditional way of life. How many deported peoples have managed that trick?

For the Chechens, the Russians are the traditional enemy. It is not in character that they would do something like this outside of Russia. Imho something doesn't jibe.



From freedom fighters to terrorists: Identity of Boston bombers shifts US attitudes to Chechnya

. . .

Indeed, the National Interest foreign policy magazine went as far as to declare that Vladimir Putin’s Chechnya policy “has been vindicated” and that “President Obama needs to call Putin ASAP.” For all about turns, these abrupt attempts to give more context to the Boston Marathon bombing and redefine Chechens as ‘dangerous enemies of Western civilization’ may not even be particularly relevant. While the Tsarnaev brothers appeared to have a very strong sense of ethnic identity, there is little so far to suggest that they were a cell in some shadowy terror group. In fact, the two had barely spent any of their lives in their homeland.


While the new portrayal of Chechnya as a terror base, may not be any more three-dimensional or correct than its previous incarnation as a tragic land denied its independence, few would deny that violence, oppression and violations of human rights have characterized the history of Russians and Chechens living in the same state.


But the quick abandonment of sympathy towards Chechens, and sanctimony towards the Kremlin in large swathes of the US establishment prove this: it is one thing to castigate a nation overseas for its approach to terrorism, but it is something else to encounter it face to face, when citizens of your own country die in acts of calculated violence.

[c1ue]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

The Chechens are special. The whole population was deported to Siberia by Stalin, on pretext that they had collaborated with the Nazis. While in Siberia, they took command over the local soviet authorities, who were afraid of them, and continued their traditional way of life. How many deported peoples have managed that trick?

How interesting. A few questions arise when reading these types of assertions:

1) Who lived in Chechnya while the entire population was taking over some part of Siberia?

2) Did the Chechens voluntarily surrender their new Siberian realm when they decided to go back?

3) What exactly is the 'traditional' Chechen way of life?

As someone who has spent considerable time in Russia, I have personally seen large numbers of Chechens, Uzbeks, Kirgiz, Dagestanis, Georgians, etc etc in the major cities.

The implicit assumption with the above statement is that all Chechens are the same. Seems more than a bit of generalization given that significant Chechen populations live in a number of nations as well as locales within these nations.

For the Chechens, the Russians are the traditional enemy. It is not in character that they would do something like this outside of Russia. Imho something doesn't jibe.

As opposed to the Mongols, or the Dagestanis, or the Georgians, or the innumerable other ethnicities that surround them or have historically dominated that part of Central Asia? Seems a stretch.

Equally the statement that Chechens only fight Russians - that's ridiculous. Chechen fighters are in Syria right now. They fought in Afghanistan in both Soviet and in American 'liberating' eras. They are in Iraq.

[cobben]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

I've spent some time studying the Chechens, just before I went to Adygeya in 2004.

Adygeya is the tame western part of the north Caucasus, the only part that did not try to opt out of the Russian Federation.
You will have to read up on the history of the northern Caucasus on your own, but yes, the Russians have been the traditional enemy for several hundred years, with reason.
.
The traditional Chechen saying goes that the members of Chechen society, like its teips, are (ideally) "free and equal like wolves".

They have something so peculiar as an open source scalable clan based society (see below), which probably at least partially explains how they could survive the soviet attempts to exterminate their culture. The soviets would have had to kill them all, not just 50%.

The Chechens are special, even within the northern Caucasus.

__________________________________________________ ___

Historically, if non-Chechen minorities living in Chechen lands wanted to take part in the political processes of the Chechen nation, and integrate into it, they would request admittance as an ethnic teip. They would continue, for a time, to speak their other languages, but also learned Chechen. Due to the encouragement of teip exogamy, as the generations passed, they would come to be heavily intermarried into the Chechen nation and as a result, be slowly Chechenized culturally and linguistically. The level of Chechenization varies between these foreign-origin teips, with some well-preserving their cultural traits and others not. They are nonetheless known as impure teips (not in a derogatory sense), for their foreign origin. Their loyalty to the nation is not any more in question than a Chechen-origin teip.
In total there are at least 45 teips which officially declare their non-Chechen heritage. However, it is highly likely that there are many other teips with foreign origin who simply forgot their long-past ancestry. However, any such speculation on an individual teips origins contradicting their own official beliefs is highly controversial.
A notable modern example of the formation of an ethnic teip is the Germans who lived among the Chechens during their exile in Kazakhstan and Siberia: during even as short a period of 13 years, the Germans decided to join the teip system, and the new "German" taip was founded by M.Weisert, whose relatives still lived mainly in Germany.^[3] There have also been several periods where Jews living in Chechnya founded their own teip (teip Dzugtoi, which has contributed much in fact to the Chechen nation according to some), which is still in existence, though it has shrunk considerably due to the flight of people from Chechnya due to the brutal war. There are also teips that were formed, sometimes temporarily, by Russians (teips Orsi, Arsoi), Poles or Ukrainians.
There are a handful of peoples which actually have more than one ethnic teip in the teip system. There are 2 Russian teips (because Russians joined at two different periods), 2 Circassian teips (one for Kabardins and one for Western Adyghe), 6 Georgian teips, and 30 "Dagestani" teips, made up of the peoples of Dagestan (some of the teips in Chechnya may have been formed by peoples who are now in fact extinct in Dagestan).
Most ethnic teips are not incorporated into Tukkhums.

[pianodoctor]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

Let's also keep in mind that these were KIDS, males, in their teens and early 20s- bodies coursing with testosterone, at an age well known for notoriously bad judgement and susceptibility to bad ideas, and living well away from adult family structure. How much their "Checheness" had to do with these attacks is not clear to me.

[cobben]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

How much their "Checheness" had to do with these attacks not clear to me.

I don't see any way they would have thought this up on their own. The Chechens systematically traumatized expendable women so that they could be used as suicide bombers. Theoretically if these boys had fallen into the company of terrorists while in the north Caucasus they could have been programmed to do this, but for what purpose? I see no plausible connection.

[astonas]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

I don't see any way they would have thought this up on their own. The Chechens systematically traumatized expendable women so that they could be used as suicide bombers. Theoretically if these boys had fallen into the company of terrorists while in the north Caucasus they could have been programmed to do this, but for what purpose? I see no plausible connection.

Hmm, troubling.

Even more troubling: If this theory is true, and Russia succeeds in changing the US's position, even a little, then framing the opposing side for terrorist attacks on US soil will become commonplace as hostile powers seek to sway US public opinion. Just one more reason not to overreact, or be too quick to jump to conclusions. (Not that we really need more, but still.)

[cobben]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

Hmm, troubling.

Even more troubling: If this theory is true, and Russia succeeds in changing the US's position, even a little, then framing the opposing side for terrorist attacks on US soil will become commonplace as hostile powers seek to sway US public opinion. Just one more reason not to overreact, or be too quick to jump to conclusions. (Not that we really need more, but still.)

This goes way back.

Russia: How the War on Terrorism Did Putin a Favor - TIME

Even before Putin became Russia's President in early 2000, and long before the Twin Towers fell, he had invoked the idea of a war against global terrorism to justify Russia's war in Chechnya. The terrorism aspect, at least, was true. Chechen separatists, who renewed their centuries-old struggle for independence soon after the Soviet Union fell, had resorted to terrorism as early as 1995, when they seized a hospital in the Russian town of Budyonnovsk and held more than 1,500 people hostage. Then in 1999, a series of apartment bombings, also blamed on the Chechens, killed hundreds of people in Moscow and other Russian cities. Putin responded by launching Russia's second full-scale invasion of Chechnya in less than a decade. "He received carte blanche from the citizens of Russia," says Mikhail Kasyanov, who was Russia's Finance Minister at the time. "They simply closed their eyes and let him do whatever he wanted as long as he saved them from this threat."

[pianodoctor]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

I don't see any way they would have thought this up on their own. The Chechens systematically traumatized expendable women so that they could be used as suicide bombers. Theoretically if these boys had fallen into the company of terrorists while in the north Caucasus they could have been programmed to do this, but for what purpose? I see no plausible connection.

I wouldn't suggest they must have thought it up on their own. But I think as teens living alone in America they may have just decided to find identity, excitement, a sense of purpose or importance by finding some terrorist org to ally with or attempt to impress. As opposed to them being recruited at a younger age in Chechnya and 'sent on a mission' to the U.S. as it were.

[c1ue]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

Historically, if non-Chechen minorities living in Chechen lands wanted to take part in the political processes of the Chechen nation, and integrate into it, they would request admittance as an ethnic teip.

What the Chechens liked to do when they were a separate nation - not that they have been a separate nation in centuries - has very little to do with what they are now.

How does going to Boston fit into being part of the Chechen teip?

Is there a large Chechen community in Boston? Were the brothers in fact in contact with any Chechens in Boston? Far from clear.

Equally I'd caution any reading up into so called 'traditional' Chechen practices. The tendency toward hagiography is powerful - the reality is that that entire region is so muddled up by successive nomadic waves from 1500+ years ago that it is quite difficult to say what is or is not traditional.

The Huns, for example, weren't in any way homogeneous. They were a single tribe sprinkled over a vast assortment of other tribes. As the Huns achieved some success, other surrounding tribes joined them - some voluntarily and some via conquest.

Where are the Huns today?

Equally so you'd be hard pressed to identify (Turkey was called Anatolia at that time) what exactly constituted a Turk in the Roman era.

If this theory is true, and Russia succeeds in changing the US's position, even a little, then framing the opposing side for terrorist attacks on US soil will become commonplace as hostile powers seek to sway US public opinion.

While anything is theoretically possible, I find it difficult to believe that 2 young men can be so stupid as to think that killing Americans on American soil in any way helps Chechnya. Equally difficult to believe is that these two were willing to lay down their lives via violent direct action in order to benefit Russia.

Let me put this another way:

What Russia cares about now more than anything else is the US missile shield.

Does a US refocus on Chechen terrorists help with this goal in any way?

Does Russia want US help in fighting Chechen terrorists in Chechnya?

I think the answer is clearly no in both cases.

I'd further note that the Chechens themselves - which I presume Kavkaz stands for - are saying that it is the FBI which entrapped the brothers. Certainly the video footage showing the elder brother alive, unarmed, and lying down on the pavement doesn't seem to jibe with the police account of violent resistance to arrest.

[c1ue]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

there's someone odd going on with iTulip; I got a popup when posting that asked me if I wanted to leave this page or stay on it.

I stayed on it, and after making edits, the result is 2 identical posts (1 of which I've since modified to this one).

In other words, the post which I thought I was editing was turned into 2 posts, both of which were the unedited original post. The edits were lost.

This was in Firefox.

[jk]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

there's someone odd going on with iTulip; I got a popup when posting that asked me if I wanted to leave this page or stay on it.

I stayed on it, and after making edits, the result is 2 identical posts (1 of which I've since modified to this one).

In other words, the post which I thought I was editing was turned into 2 posts, both of which were the unedited original post. The edits were lost.

i've had the same experience. i'm using chrome- not sure if that's relevant. just say, yes, leave the page, and it transmits your post and puts you back on the page.

[c1ue]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

An amusing note in one of the wiki articles listed above by cobben:

the German courting of the Terek Cossacks was not pleasing at all to the Chechens (their traditional enemies which with they still had numerous land disputes and other conflicts)

The above statement, I can believe. The Terek Cossacks were neighbors and in frequent conflict with the Chechens.

However, to describe Terek Cossacks as Russian would be just as accurate as describing Chechens as Russian, which is to say, not really.

[cobben]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

An amusing note in one of the wiki articles listed above by cobben:



The above statement, I can believe. The Terek Cossacks were neighbors and in frequent conflict with the Chechens.

However, to describe Terek Cossacks as Russian would be just as accurate as describing Chechens as Russian, which is to say, not really.

I recall reading recently somewhere that the Chechens did often not distinguish between the Cossacks and the Russians, lumping them together.
Of course the reason the Cossacks were put there in the first place was as border guards for the Russian empire, to keep order along the borders, thus encroaching on the Chechens land.
The Cossack descendents still live in their stanitsas, as opposed to the auls of the Cherkess, and are to all intents and purposes "Russian" these days, at least in Adygeya.

[cobben]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

Here is the omnipresent oil angle, which I was aware of but did not know any details.
Indeed it seems there may be a possible motive for hatred of also the US here, but the US was never involved with on-the-ground repression in Chechnya, so it seems weak.

Guest Post: Boston Marathon Attacks, Chechnya And Oil - The Hidden U.S. Connection


. . .

And many Chechens were swallowed up by the NVKD’s Gulag archipelago, but even there, their toughness and militancy set them apart. As Russian Nobel Prize winner Alexander Solzhenitsyn noted his is three-volume study, The GuLAG Archipelago, "There was one nation which would not give in, would not acquire the mental habits of submission - and not just individual rebels among them, but the whole nation to a man. These were the Chechens... They had been treacherously snatched from their home, and from that day they believed in nothing... The years went by - and they owned just as little as they had to begin with. The Chechens never sought to please, to ingratiate themselves with the bosses; their attitude was always haughty and indeed openly hostile.”

. . .

Accordingly, the Chechen conflict dovetailed perfectly not only into Washington’s plans, to bog down the Russian military in a long, drawn-out conflict in the Caucasus, but provide Western energy companies with an alternative route as Chechnya was slowly ground down by the Russian military.
Oil that would have otherwise moved northwards to Russia, providing lucrative transit fees.


Chechnya proved ground zero for both Western political and business interests.



All of the above history, virtually unknown in the U.S., is deeply known to every Chechen. The shadow war between Moscow and Washington for the Caspian’s energy riches saw Chechnya squarely caught in the middle, leaving the Chechen homeland virtually destroyed, something to remember when reading the increasingly contradictory news reports coming out of Washington about the blood shed in Boston by the Tsarnaev brothers, as the U.S. is hardly blameless about the carnage visited on their ancestral homeland.


__________________________________________________ ____________________________________



And here is Craig Murray saying just what I have been thinking.
He is a former UK ambassador to Uz with an interesting story of his own (google him if you are curious)

The Boston Bombings and the FBI: “Official Tsarnaev Story Makes No Sense”


. . .

This scenario is simply impossible in the real world.


We have, by the official account, the involvement of the two Tsarnaev brothers, the FBI and the Russian security services. The FBI have a massive recent record of running agent provocateur operations to entrap gullible Muslims into terrorism.


The Russian security services have form on false flag Chechen bombings. Where the truth lies may be difficult to dig out. But the above official version is not true.

[Master Shake]

Re: Boston - the Russian angle

It's not their "Chechen-ness" that spurred their violence but their "Islam-ness."

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/...thon-Suspects/