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  • RE: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

    left unsaid in the following is the cracks in the confidence (game) of savings in the bank and would you rather have a middling rental or an involuntary savings haircut . . .

    It is astounding how people brush off an overall weak economy and suddenly justify all cash investors as somehow a normal part of the real estate market. Once again, we are in uncharted territory. The amount of all cash buyers is off the charts. Not only are these Wall Street investors but also foreign money flowing into targeted markets. It is one thing to push it off but it is another thing to actually look at historical data. It is amazing how quickly people drink from the fountain of cultural amnesia and suddenly forget the environment that led us into this mess. This is a fact however; never have we had so much of the real estate market dominated by all cash purchases. But what is a normal amount? Let us go ahead and look at historical data here to see what we can find.

    All cash purchases hit a record in 2012

    It is hard to find nationwide data for the real estate market going back past 2000 but here we have data on four large areas. It looks like overall, all cash purchases range from 5 to 10 percent:



    What is amazing is how crazy some markets have gotten like Phoenix and Orlando where basically investors have become the vast majority of the market. Much of the price gains in the last year are driven by investors competing for the small lot of inventory regardless of what underlying rental yields will produce. The Fed of course is luring in buyers with stagnant incomes and low interest rates. The reality is, households are looking at their balance sheets and are saying “what the heck, rates are low so let us go dive in.” It is more enticing especially when every headline is now talking about the reemergence of the housing market.

    If you think this isn’t the case for California, think again:


    Source: CAR, Buildbankroll

    It got worse in 2011 and 2012. In fact, at least for data for Southern California, all cash buying hit a record of 35.8 percent in December (last month it was 35.6). Last year it was 33.7 percent showing that a large amount of buying in Southern California is coming from the all cash crowd, way higher than historical norms. And most of these people are not planning on living in these places. 31.4 percent of purchases in SoCal are absentee buyers. The monthly average dating back to 2000 is around 17 percent. In other words this is a market dominated by the all cash crowd. Some would like to pretend like this is normal but it is clearly not. This is hot money flooding into the market. If it isn’t big money, it is balance sheet weak buyers going in with FHA insured loans and the tiny 3.5 percent down payment.

    Tracking the investor market carefully, you realize that these people do pay attention to incomes and local regional economics. When you are buying lots of homes, you better make sure the local crowd can cover a certain amount of rents to make yields worthwhile. There is no Fed incentive to renting so this money has to come from your net income. In other words, what you actually earn from the real economy instead of flipping homes like burgers. Signs are already showing a peak in investor buying, at least from the pro crowd:


    “(Fortune) While this has gone on for some time, the investor frenzy might have peaked. Rents for single-family homes have essentially flattened — rising just 0.1% in March from a year earlier, according to a report released Thursday by real estate listing website Trulia. What’s more, in some cities where investors had the biggest appetite for properties on the cheap, rents have fallen: Take Los Angeles, where rents fell 1.9%; rents in Orange County slipped down 0.7%; Las Vegas saw a 1.9% drop. And in two other key investor markets — Atlanta and Phoenix — single-family home rents remained flat, rising less than 1%.
    Meanwhile, rents for apartments have continued to rise, climbing 2.9% in March from a year earlier.”


    So much for rents going up forever and ever even in untouchable Southern California. The article goes on to point out that “small investors” are now becoming a bigger part of sales. Yeah, after the massive recent run-up. Of course it is hard to break out the type of all cash buyer from the 35 percent of purchases in Southern California. One thing is certain, this market is not normal. But this market has not been normal since the early 2000s. Basically you have to ask at what stage or bubble are we currently in? Does this boom have many years to go? I think most would feel comfortable if a flood of good paying jobs were coming online at the same time. Is that even the case?

    Prices have surged in the last couple of years especially in certain markets. Very little supply and investor demand has been a large reason for this. We’ve discussed that the big question would be what happens to the market when investor demand pulls back? In SoCal, most investors trying to cash flow have to come in with big cash. It is funny to hear some all cash buyers saying they are cash flowing on a $500,000 purchase that rents for $2,000 in rent. Of course! But you’re basically getting a 4.8 percent return assuming you have no expenses, no property management, no vacancies, and no repairs. Most professional landlords realize that about 40 to 50 percent of gross rents will go to operating expenses. In other words, that $2,000 is really like $1,000. Then that 4.8 percent return turns into 2.4 percent. Can you see why the pros are pulling back? By the time the masses get in line the money has already been made.

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/a...ent-of-market/

  • #2
    Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

    I am amazed at the number of people up here in Western Canada that have "invested" in rental property in Vancouver and Calgary as a future retirement income plan and have absolutely no fear of capital losses.

    Unlike Phoenix or Florida, as Brian Ripley's always entertaining plunge-o-meter chart below shows, there was no significant price crash in Canadian cities last decade. I guess they must be right...real estate never goes down...

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    • #3
      Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

      That is insane, GRG. Average home price here is around $100,000. Not too different from what it was even back two decades ago.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

        Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
        I am amazed at the number of people up here in Western Canada that have "invested" in rental property in Vancouver and Calgary as a future retirement income plan and have absolutely no fear of capital losses.

        Unlike Phoenix or Florida, as Brian Ripley's always entertaining plunge-o-meter chart below shows, there was no significant price crash in Canadian cities last decade. I guess they must be right...real estate never goes down...

        more Canadian exceptionalism . . .

        Canada shed 54,500 positions in March, more than wiping out the 50,700 jobs that were added in February, Statistics Canada said on Friday.

        Oh, Canada!

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        • #5
          Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

          I suppose we're in the backwoods of the Southwestern US but housing costs are just now bottoming and with the stock market up over double, it seems like a great place to move investment funds. For the patient investor, gross returns are closer to 8% here. I think housing is a good place for a share of US investments at this point.

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          • #6
            Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

            Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
            I suppose we're in the backwoods of the Southwestern US but housing costs are just now bottoming and with the stock market up over double, it seems like a great place to move investment funds. For the patient investor, gross returns are closer to 8% here. I think housing is a good place for a share of US investments at this point.
            location is everything . . .

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            • #7
              Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

              Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
              I am amazed at the number of people up here in Western Canada that have "invested" in rental property in Vancouver and Calgary as a future retirement income plan and have absolutely no fear of capital losses.

              Unlike Phoenix or Florida, as Brian Ripley's always entertaining plunge-o-meter chart below shows, there was no significant price crash in Canadian cities last decade. I guess they must be right...real estate never goes down...

              Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
              That is insane, GRG. Average home price here is around $100,000. Not too different from what it was even back two decades ago.
              Yeah the real estate bubble here in Canada is ridiculous. I live here in Toronto, and the prices I see homes go for blows my mind. You may see a house and think it was worth 200k, but it will sell for $450 000 :S A friend of mine bought a condo in downtown toronto for $500 000. The place is like a matchbox. Just a single living room (which is where he sleeps) and a kitchen + bathroom. That's it. For 500k. and we often argue about where its value is going to head over time (He thinks its going to continue going up and up and up)

              Here's a good video about the Canadian real estate situation. It's a bit long, but most of the good facts are near the beginning (at around 6:16)


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              • #8
                Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                I don't understand how people can think that way. One would think that the 2008 financial crisis would have made people absolutely paranoid around real estate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                  Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
                  I don't understand how people can think that way. One would think that the 2008 financial crisis would have made people absolutely paranoid around real estate.
                  honestly, I don't think a lot of people here in Canada even realize the extent of what happened in the U.S.. We're still quite liquored up over here


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                  • #10
                    Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                    Originally posted by verdo View Post
                    honestly, I don't think a lot of people here in Canada even realize the extent of what happened in the U.S.. We're still quite liquored up over here
                    it's called anti-freeze . . .

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                      I'm in Orlando. Definitely a lot of action in the housing market by investors. While rents have gone up in recent years, it looks like the investors buying up homes is just starting to depress rents with all the new rental supply coming online. Probably isn't a bad time to sell if I had a reason to move.

                      Lots of new apartment complexes being built as well.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                        Originally posted by don View Post
                        location is everything . . .
                        It's official. Santa Fe real estate is down 17% YOY. We're probably getting close to the bottom as sales are moving up while prices move down. Case Shiller might be what everyone else watches but life is different outside of large US cities. 2009 happened in 2009 in LA but it's just now happening here. I suspect this is the case everywhere in rural America.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                          Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                          It's official. Santa Fe real estate is down 17% YOY. We're probably getting close to the bottom as sales are moving up while prices move down. Case Shiller might be what everyone else watches but life is different outside of large US cities. 2009 happened in 2009 in LA but it's just now happening here. I suspect this is the case everywhere in rural America.
                          not mentioned below are those eager to sell and blocked by their still underwater mortgage despite local price increases . . .

                          The spring season is now in full bloom and the real estate market continues to have a wickedly low amount of inventory for sale. According to the California Association of Realtors, annual home sales are now down about 6 percent while the median home price is up 24 percent. Inventory is still at or near a record low.

                          What is interesting is that the number of real estate agents saying now is a good time to buy has decline while the number of agents saying now is a good time to sell, has spiked dramatically. While prices have soared in the last year sales have not. As we just mentioned, the annual sales rate for California actually fell year-over-year. Buying power brought on by low interest rates has caused two major shifts in the market; a big bounce in purchasing power in spite of stagnant income growth and a low interest rate environment causing big money to choose real estate as the investment vehicle of choice. Is this record low inventory simply a part of the new housing market?

                          Housing inventory

                          While on a monthly basis national housing inventory is up by 3 percent, it is still down by 20 percent over the last year:



                          Inventory is down nearly 60 percent from the peak in 2007. Without a doubt, the Fed and government have decided to focus on increasing buying power seeing this as an easier choice than trying to increase household incomes. This isn’t a new trend. The decline in interest rates has occurred since the 1980s and has accelerated in the 2000s. The recent push has turned out to be more aggressive with the Fed openly buying MBS through QE3 operations:



                          This renewed buying power has put a bottom on prices for the nation. Yet in many markets especially in places like California, this added leverage has caused big money and foreign money to flood into niche markets crowding out local buyers.

                          What is interesting is that many agents are now seeing this as a good time to sell and not necessarily a fantastic time to buy:



                          The number of agents thinking now is “a good time to buy” dropped from 75 to 57 percent from Q3 2012 to Q1 2013. Some are even saying it is a bad time to buy (up from 2 to 5 percent). Coming from real estate agents, that is a big deal. Of course, on the other side of the coin, those saying now is a good time to sell has jumped up:



                          The number of agents saying now is a good time to sell went from 54 to 82 percent from Q3 2012 to Q1 2013. That is a near unison agreement that now is a good time to sell. Whenever an entire group believes something is a certainty, you have to watch out. Even when you look at historical stock market peaks, you see similar emotional trends.

                          Of course, if you believe that now is a good time to sell and agents are telling this to clients, then you would expect some bounce in inventory which we really haven’t seen. Also, if some are saying now is not a good time to buy, you would expect that the prospective buyer side of the equation would shrink somewhat. Yet with one third of purchases coming from big money, the agent is more of an afterthought. They are buying based on their own internal models versus your average buyer that probably is more swayed by those in the industry.

                          The decline in inventory is still very much a story. What I found interesting in the recent survey is that the idea that prices were going to go up in the next year has jumped:



                          44 percent of agents now believe prices will “rise a lot” over the next 12 months. This figure went from 11 to 44 percent from Q3 2012 to Q1 of 2013. That is a massive jump. Yet if inventory rises (time to sell) and demand falls (not good time to buy) you would expect prices to remain stagnant or even fall a bit. When we look at sales volume, we are already seeing somewhat of a bottleneck. We’ve discussed that some big investors are losing their appetite for housing given declining yields and we should find out shortly the impacts on the market with such a high demand of investor buying.

                          The fact that we are seeing wild optimism coupled with declining sales and prices reaching bottlenecks, it will be an interesting few years ahead. Are you seeing any of this agent euphoria in the current market?

                          http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/r...recast-trends/

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                          • #14
                            Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                            Originally posted by don View Post
                            The spring season is now in full bloom and the real estate market continues to have a wickedly low amount of inventory for sale. According to the California Association of Realtors, annual home sales are now down about 6 percent while the median home price is up 24 percent. Inventory is still at or near a record low.
                            And it's the opposite here. I shy away from talking about investment ideas here because it doesn't seem appropriate but I've moved back into real estate investing over the last few months. In our market, there is still a lot of property for sale and the banks here are just now beginning to understand that vacant houses don't produce income. There is a huge hidden inventory. When I reach out personally, there are many owners who want to sell but don't list their houses. There are at least two Americas. The Case-Shiller 20 and the rest of the US. I suspect there are many more but I'm sure what's happening in California is years ahead of what will happen in my town.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Cash in a rental or in a bank?

                              Originally posted by santafe2 View Post
                              And it's the opposite here. I shy away from talking about investment ideas here because it doesn't seem appropriate but I've moved back into real estate investing over the last few months. In our market, there is still a lot of property for sale and the banks here are just now beginning to understand that vacant houses don't produce income. There is a huge hidden inventory. When I reach out personally, there are many owners who want to sell but don't list their houses. There are at least two Americas. The Case-Shiller 20 and the rest of the US. I suspect there are many more but I'm sure what's happening in California is years ahead of what will happen in my town.
                              The Federal Housing Finance Agency tracks many more cities in their All-Transactions House Price Indexes, including Santa Fe. The various indexes (Case-Shiller, FHFA HPI, etc) each have their quirks. The FHFA HPI pulls data from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac conforming mortgages, so no jumbo loans... this skewed their data downward for expensive cities during the boom, but doesn't matter as much for markets where prices never went to the moon. The HPI also includes refinance appraisals, whereas Case-Shiller only includes actual purchases.


                              Forgot to note on the chart, their index is keyed to Q1 1995 = 100

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