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How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

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  • How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

    How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/100570888

    Caution: Double-Digit Correction Coming for China Stocks

    Published: Tuesday, 19 Mar 2013 | 11:46 PM ET


    After a positive start to the year, Chinese equities have fast fallen out of favor with investors, down more than 6 percent in the past month on worries over a bubble building in the property market and on the overall growth outlook.


    According to technical analyst Ray Barros of Ray Barros Trading Group, the worst is not over for the market, he expects a further correction of up to 15 percent for the benchmark Shanghai Composite in the next two months.


    "We have had a strong move from the 1,950 level to a high of 2,443, and then it [Shanghai Composite] started a big down move. This is the start of a move all the way back down to the 1,900-1,950 level," he said.
    Barros describes the recent rally in China stocks - which rose 25 percent in the three months from December to February on renewed confidence over the outlook for the world's second largest economy - as a merely "bear market rally" that is already in the process of unwinding.
    The Shanghai Composite has been in a bear market - a period during which a market undergoes a series of "lower highs and lower lows" - since 2009, according to Barros.


    If the market tests the 1,900-1,950 level, it could decline to the next resistance level at 1,600, Barros said, noting this could come as soon as September.


    The speed of decline may depend on how the Cyprus bailout issue plays out, and whether it remains contained to the island nation, he added.


    Barros, however, said he doesn't expect the decline in Chinese stocks to be sharp, noting that it will be a "gentle move down."


    Hard Landing Fears Return


    Concerns over a hard landing in the mainland economy have resurfaced in recent weeks. A survey by Bank of America Merrill Lynch released on Tuesday showed that the number of investors who consider a hard landing in China the biggest tail risk, ticked up from 10 percent to 18 percent this month.


    The Chinese economy grew at its slowest pace in 13 years at 7.8 percent in 2012.


    (Read More: China Displaying Symptoms of Financial Crisis)
    This week JPMorgan, the largest U.S. bank by assets, downgraded China to underweight, citing uncertainty over the policy environment in the country.


    "Economic risk today is arguably higher than in mid-2012. Back then, the market could look forward to a stimulus," Adrian Mowat, chief Asian and emerging markets equity strategist at JPMorgan Securities, said, referring to the fixed asset investment of over $150 billion that was announced in the second half of 2012.
    "Growth momentum is now slowing with policy response constrained; a nasty combination," he added.

  • #2
    Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

    It would seem China has a lot more bullets left for miscreant behavior, compared to the US, where statistical lies continue on all fronts despite an emptied pistola.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

      I do find it funny that you use a CNBC link to talk about China lying...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

        Originally posted by c1ue View Post
        I do find it funny that you use a CNBC link to talk about China lying...

        Based on the reports I get from friends in China, things aren't looking good. What's happening on the ground is contrary to economic reports.

        I would expect field reports to sip out over the next couple of months. You can't use paper to cover fire for too long.
        Last edited by touchring; March 20, 2013, 08:23 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

          Sometimes, looking at the business reports of multinational companies doing business in Asia is more useful.

          http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...ecline-680248/

          Despite local unit's success, FedEx suffers decline


          March 21, 2013 12:39 am
          [/COLOR]
          By Ann Belser / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
          FedEx's Moon-based Ground unit is pulling the rest of the company out of the drink.
          But even with Ground's revenue up by $270 million, or 11 percent from the third quarter of last year, there is only so much that portion of the business can do for the rest.

          FedEx's third quarter revenues, reported Wednesday, were down so severely that even the Wall Street analysts who watch the Memphis, Tenn.-based company for a living didn't foresee the decline.

          The company reported earnings of $1.13 per share, or 32 percent below last year's third quarter earnings of $1.65. Excluding one-time items, earnings came in a $1.23 per share.


          A Thompson-Reuters poll of analysts had expected, on average, earnings per share of $1.38, with the lowest prediction at $1.30.


          Net income in the third quarter was $361 million, down by 31 percent from $521 million in the same quarter last year, even as total revenues rose by 4 percent from $10.56 billion to $10.95 billion.

          In other words, the company is still making money, just not as much money as last year.

          On a conference call with analysts, Fred Smith, the company's chairman, president and CEO, blamed two things for the falling profits: a buyout of officers and managing directors that cost $47 million, which ultimately will save the company money, and the weakness of the international air freight markets.


          The company's stock dropped as the markets opened just after the end of the earnings call, opening at $102, or $6.46 below Tuesday's close. By the end of the day, the stock closed at $99.15, a 6.87 percent decline or a loss of $7.31.


          Mr. Smith said the company will respond to the continued weakness in Asia by reducing its express traffic to Asia beginning April 1. He said some shipments will be switched to lower costs alternatives.

          There will be more costs associated with reducing expenses companywide. In addition to the buyouts offered to officers and directors, FedEx had an employee buyout plan. Its workers have until April 1 to take or leave the offer. Those buyouts will start to take effect May 31, the end of the company's 2013 fiscal year.

          "FedEx has a long and successful history of flexing our network to meet market conditions," Mr. Smith said.


          While the Express service was problematic overseas, David Bronczek, president of the Memphis-based Express unit, said its domestic business was up.


          Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/...#ixzz2OADdtiEq

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

            To save money, online shoppers and big businesses are increasingly willing to wait a little longer for goods to arrive. While that may mean savings for consumers, it is hurting FedEx’s core business — express delivery.

            On Wednesday, the FedEx Corporation cut its outlook for the year after its profits slumped by 31 percent in the latest quarter. The company said it would pare its flight capacity between the United States and Asia and might ground some cargo planes. FedEx said it was making those changes because its customers were increasingly using its cheaper shipping options, even if that meant slower deliveries.

            The news startled investors. The stock fell 6.9 percent, its steepest one-day drop in 18 months, to $99.13 a share on the New York Stock Exchange.

            Because it carries a wide variety of goods around the world, FedEx has long been seen as a leading indicator of the economy. But Wednesday’s news did not point to a slowdown in global business — the company’s revenue actually rose 11 percent in the quarter. Instead, it reflected a more cost-conscious attitude among businesses in a time of economic uncertainty.

            http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/21/bu...s-31.html?_r=0

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

              Originally posted by touchring
              Based on the reports I get from friends in ChinaAmerica, things aren't looking good. What's happening on the ground is contrary to economic reports.
              There, all fixed.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                There, all fixed.
                A true believer in the so-called Chinese miracle I see.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

                  Originally posted by GRG55
                  A true believer in the so-called Chinese miracle I see.
                  Hardly.

                  I actually do think China's ongoing growth in the last several years is at least partially illusory.

                  However, China's economic lies are hardly the only ones out there, nor are they even the most egregious.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

                    Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                    Hardly.

                    I actually do think China's ongoing growth in the last several years is at least partially illusory.

                    However, China's economic lies are hardly the only ones out there, nor are they even the most egregious.


                    Really? http://www.businessinsider.com/60-mi...-cities-2013-3

                    A bubble burst in China will make the riots in Greece look trivial. Unlike the US or Europe, there is no social security in China for the majority. Entire 3 generations have put their life savings and "coffin money" into real estate. If they lose it all, that's too bad.

                    So what did the CEO of Vanke, the largest real estate company in China and possibly the whole world had to say of a bubble burst?

                    "Arab spring"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: How many times can you lie about growth data and get away with it?

                      Originally posted by touchring
                      A bubble burst in China will make the riots in Greece look trivial. Unlike the US or Europe, there is no social security in China for the majority. Entire 3 generations have put their life savings and "coffin money" into real estate. If they lose it all, that's too bad.

                      So what did the CEO of Vanke, the largest real estate company in China and possibly the whole world had to say of a bubble burst?

                      "Arab spring"
                      I'd be a lot more convinced if the real estate bubble in China was fueled by a massive overhang of mortgage debt, and guaranteed by a long procession of banksters in the Ministry of the Treasury.

                      As it is, I can see a long, painful, and slow contraction as we're seeing in the US. If the US can make its gigantic mortgage fueled real estate bubble pop only slowly, I fail to see why China cannot do the same.

                      And unlike the US, China has other areas in which construction money can/is being spent - like building 1 nuclear power plant every month until 2030.

                      As for social security: there is very little Social Security (either financial or health care) in the US unless you're over the age of 65. What little there was, is right now wearing off as the 99ers fall precipitously off both the unemployment check rolls and disappear from the 'working age' population.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Will China do a Japan?

                        Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                        Hardly.

                        I actually do think China's ongoing growth in the last several years is at least partially illusory.

                        However, China's economic lies are hardly the only ones out there, nor are they even the most egregious.
                        That is how I think about it. If China did not have serious problems, why the ghost cities and property bubble?

                        Several other nations have industrialized quickly, then gone into a long interval of slower growth. These would include South Korea and Taiwan.

                        What I am wondering, is, will China do a Japan--try to extend rapid growth for a few more years, end up creating big bubbles, and then spend 30 years paying for it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Will China do a Japan?

                          Originally posted by Polish_Silver View Post
                          That is how I think about it. If China did not have serious problems, why the ghost cities and property bubble?

                          Several other nations have industrialized quickly, then gone into a long interval of slower growth. These would include South Korea and Taiwan.

                          What I am wondering, is, will China do a Japan--try to extend rapid growth for a few more years, end up creating big bubbles, and then spend 30 years paying for it.

                          China is not Japan. Japan's a democracy. China is an autocracy. In a democracy, whenever the government screws up the economy, the people will vote for the other party.

                          But in autocracy, this can't happen, because the government won't resign - because they can't let the other guy see their books! - so there is the risk of unrest - Arab Spring.

                          To avoid that, the government will do everything that is needed to prolong economic growth. So the question now is how long you can prolong a bubble??

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Will China do a Japan?

                            Originally posted by touchring View Post
                            China is not Japan. Japan's a democracy. China is an autocracy. In a democracy, whenever the government screws up the economy, the people will vote for the other party.

                            But in autocracy, this can't happen, because the government won't resign - because they can't let the other guy see their books! - so there is the risk of unrest - Arab Spring.

                            To avoid that, the government will do everything that is needed to prolong economic growth. So the question now is how long you can prolong a bubble??
                            Luckily here in the US, we have a one-party democracy.

                            No problemo . . .

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Will China do a Japan?

                              Originally posted by don View Post
                              Luckily here in the US, we have a one-party democracy.

                              No problemo . . .

                              i'd refer to it as a one-party kleptocratic buracracy, with the political class rigging the game to keep themselves perpetually in power (due to NOT having term limits), by showering ever smaller, razor thin slivers of the electorate with special status, special favors - no matter what the consequences - in an effort to eek out a 1% 'margin of victory' - all the while claiming they represent the little guys

                              = BIG problemo, doncha tink?

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