Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

[BadJuju]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21752441

Japan says it has successfully extracted natural gas from frozen methane hydrate off its central coast, in a world first.
Methane hydrates, or clathrates, are a type of frozen "cage" of molecules of methane and water.
The gas field is about 50km away from Japan's main island, in the Nankai Trough.
Researchers say it could provide an alternative energy source for Japan which imports all its energy needs.
Other countries including Canada, the US and China have been looking into ways of exploiting methane hydrate deposits as well.
Pilot experiments in recent years, using methane hydrates found under land ice, have shown that methane can be extracted from the deposits.

Offshore deposits present a potentially enormous source of methane but also some environmental concern, because the underwater geology containing them is unstable in many places.
"It is the world's first offshore experiment producing gas from methane hydrate," an official from the economy, trade and industry ministry told the AFP news agency.
A survey of the gas field is being run by state-owned Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corporation (JOGMEC).
Engineers used a depressurisation method that turns methane hydrate into methane gas.
Production tests are expected to continue for about two weeks.
Government officials have said that they aim to establish methane hydrate production technologies for practical use within five years.
A Japanese study estimated that at least 1.1tn cubic metres of methane hydrate exist in offshore deposits.
This is the equivalent of more than a decade of Japan's gas consumption.
Japan has few natural resources and the cost of importing fuel has increased after a backlash against nuclear power following the Fukushima nuclear disaster two years ago.

[EJ]

Re: Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21752441

Japan says it has successfully extracted natural gas from frozen methane hydrate off its central coast, in a world first.
Methane hydrates, or clathrates, are a type of frozen "cage" of molecules of methane and water.
The gas field is about 50km away from Japan's main island, in the Nankai Trough.
Researchers say it could provide an alternative energy source for Japan which imports all its energy needs.
Other countries including Canada, the US and China have been looking into ways of exploiting methane hydrate deposits as well.
Pilot experiments in recent years, using methane hydrates found under land ice, have shown that methane can be extracted from the deposits.

Offshore deposits present a potentially enormous source of methane but also some environmental concern, because the underwater geology containing them is unstable in many places.
"It is the world's first offshore experiment producing gas from methane hydrate," an official from the economy, trade and industry ministry told the AFP news agency.
A survey of the gas field is being run by state-owned Japan Oil, Gas and Metals National Corporation (JOGMEC).
Engineers used a depressurisation method that turns methane hydrate into methane gas.
Production tests are expected to continue for about two weeks.
Government officials have said that they aim to establish methane hydrate production technologies for practical use within five years.
A Japanese study estimated that at least 1.1tn cubic metres of methane hydrate exist in offshore deposits.
This is the equivalent of more than a decade of Japan's gas consumption.
Japan has few natural resources and the cost of importing fuel has increased after a backlash against nuclear power following the Fukushima nuclear disaster two years ago.

The "100 years of nat gas from methane hydrate" capital markets racket begins.

Year 1: JP Morgan, Goldman, et al, bank methane hydrate E&P companies
Year 2: Five dozen "independent consultants" issue reports of 10 trillion recoverable cu ft of NG from methane hydrate
Year 3: WSJ and BusinessWeek headlines read: '100 years of natural gas from methane hydrate. World's energy problems solved.'
Year 4: Stock of methane hydrate E&P companies rise sharply
Year 5: JP Morgan et al exit with fees and profits as NG prices plunge to $2
Year 6; Art Berman works out the methane hydrate production economics on the back of a napkin in 10 minutes: producing NG from methane hydrate costs 5x more than the gas can ever be sold for
Year 7: 99% of methane hydrate E&P companies go out of business
.
.
.
Year 10: Entire episode forgotten. Who's Art Berman? Reload for next capital markets racket.

[ST]

Re: Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

The "100 years of nat gas from methane hydrate" capital markets racket begins.

Year 1: JP Morgan, Goldman, et al, bank methane hydrate E&P companies
Year 2: Five dozen "independent consultants" issue reports of 10 trillion recoverable cu ft of NG from methane hydrate
Year 3: WSJ and BusinessWeek headlines read: '100 years of natural gas from methane hydrate. World's energy problems solved.'
Year 4: Stock of methane hydrate E&P companies rise sharply
Year 5: JP Morgan et al exit with fees and profits as NG prices plunge to $2
Year 6; Art Berman works out the methane hydrate production economics on the back of a napkin in 10 minutes: producing NG from methane hydrate costs 5x more than the gas can ever be sold for
Year 7: 99% of methane hydrate E&P companies go out of business
.
.
.
Year 10: Entire episode forgotten. Who's Art Berman? Reload for next capital markets racket.

Excellence in engineering... engineering bubbles.

[don]

Re: Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

The "100 years of nat gas from methane hydrate" capital markets racket begins.

Year 1: JP Morgan, Goldman, et al, bank methane hydrate E&P companies
Year 2: Five dozen "independent consultants" issue reports of 10 trillion recoverable cu ft of NG from methane hydrate
Year 3: WSJ and BusinessWeek headlines read: '100 years of natural gas from methane hydrate. World's energy problems solved.'
Year 4: Stock of methane hydrate E&P companies rise sharply
Year 5: JP Morgan et al exit with fees and profits as NG prices plunge to $2
Year 6; Art Berman works out the methane hydrate production economics on the back of a napkin in 10 minutes: producing NG from methane hydrate costs 5x more than the gas can ever be sold for
Year 7: 99% of methane hydrate E&P companies go out of business
.
.
.
Year 10: Entire episode forgotten. Who's Art Berman? Reload for next capital markets racket.

Beautifully done, boss, adding another page of knowledge to the 'tulip playbook.

(Is Peak Hype axiomatic of Peak Cheap Oil?)



trust me, a really Big Picture . . .

[globaleconomicollaps]

Re: Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

The "100 years of nat gas from methane hydrate" capital markets racket begins.

Year 1: JP Morgan, Goldman, et al, bank methane hydrate E&P companies
Year 2: Five dozen "independent consultants" issue reports of 10 trillion recoverable cu ft of NG from methane hydrate
Year 3: WSJ and BusinessWeek headlines read: '100 years of natural gas from methane hydrate. World's energy problems solved.'
Year 4: Stock of methane hydrate E&P companies rise sharply
Year 5: JP Morgan et al exit with fees and profits as NG prices plunge to $2
Year 6; Art Berman works out the methane hydrate production economics on the back of a napkin in 10 minutes: producing NG from methane hydrate costs 5x more than the gas can ever be sold for
Year 7: 99% of methane hydrate E&P companies go out of business
.
.
.
Year 10: Entire episode forgotten. Who's Art Berman? Reload for next capital markets racket.

Should I be at all concerned about a Giant hurricane scouring all life from the surface of planet earth?

[gwynedd1]

Re: Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

The "100 years of nat gas from methane hydrate" capital markets racket begins.

Year 1: JP Morgan, Goldman, et al, bank methane hydrate E&P companies
Year 2: Five dozen "independent consultants" issue reports of 10 trillion recoverable cu ft of NG from methane hydrate
Year 3: WSJ and BusinessWeek headlines read: '100 years of natural gas from methane hydrate. World's energy problems solved.'
Year 4: Stock of methane hydrate E&P companies rise sharply
Year 5: JP Morgan et al exit with fees and profits as NG prices plunge to $2
Year 6; Art Berman works out the methane hydrate production economics on the back of a napkin in 10 minutes: producing NG from methane hydrate costs 5x more than the gas can ever be sold for
Year 7: 99% of methane hydrate E&P companies go out of business
.
.
.
Year 10: Entire episode forgotten. Who's Art Berman? Reload for next capital markets racket.

Long have I searched for cynicism worthy of my own.

[Polish_Silver]

too soon to call?

Has Berman, or any other specialist, commented about what costs would be to
process this stuff? It seems like the methane hydrates have been known for a while, so somebody should have a number.

The original article did not say much about cost, only physical quantities present.

[Down Under]

Re: Japan Extracts Gas from Methane Dydrate in World First

The "100 years of nat gas from methane hydrate" capital markets racket begins.

Year 1: JP Morgan, Goldman, et al, bank methane hydrate E&P companies
Year 2: Five dozen "independent consultants" issue reports of 10 trillion recoverable cu ft of NG from methane hydrate
Year 3: WSJ and BusinessWeek headlines read: '100 years of natural gas from methane hydrate. World's energy problems solved.'
Year 4: Stock of methane hydrate E&P companies rise sharply
Year 5: JP Morgan et al exit with fees and profits as NG prices plunge to $2
Year 6; Art Berman works out the methane hydrate production economics on the back of a napkin in 10 minutes: producing NG from methane hydrate costs 5x more than the gas can ever be sold for
Year 7: 99% of methane hydrate E&P companies go out of business
.
.
.
Year 10: Entire episode forgotten. Who's Art Berman? Reload for next capital markets racket.

So, EJ, would this also apply to the coal seam gas hype in Australia, as well. I 've tried comparing the differences between coal seam gas and shale gas and although similar are also different. But, probably not different enough to be real. They are also talking in the range of several trillion cu feet of NG. Just wondering if you know anything about this.

[astonas]

Re: too soon to call?

Has Berman, or any other specialist, commented about what costs would be to
process this stuff? It seems like the methane hydrates have been known for a while, so somebody should have a number.

The original article did not say much about cost, only physical quantities present.

If all you want is methane, it's pretty trivial, just melt the ice. There is no (covalent) chemical bond, just a frozen water clathrate entrapping the methane.

The catch is that melting water comes at an energy cost of 334 J/g. And there's a lot more water than methane. How much more depends on formation conditions.

[Polish_Silver]

vacuum, not warmth for methane

They are using vacuum, not warmth to free up the methane.

[EJ]

Re: too soon to call?

Has Berman, or any other specialist, commented about what costs would be to
process this stuff? It seems like the methane hydrates have been known for a while, so somebody should have a number.

The original article did not say much about cost, only physical quantities present.

Most of these articles that purport to reveal a startling new energy resource discovery, including most shale oil deposits, avoid the topic of production cost.

Whether the NG is separated from the water by heat or some other method is not the ROI killer. Before you can get the NG out of the methane hydrate you have to:

1. Find the methane hydrates
2. Mine the methane hydrates
3. Transport the methane hydrates to a location for processing
4. Extract NG from the methane hydrates

I suspect that steps 1 - 3 are more costly than step 4. Certainly more costly than:

1. Locate gas
2. Dill well
3. Extract NG from ground

This primer by the U.S. Geologic Survey explains that 99% of methane hydrates are located "in the uppermost hundreds of meters of sediments at ocean water depths greater than ~500 meters." Strip-mining hundreds of meters of sediment where the water pressure is 730 lbs/square inch does not strike me as a cheap, assuming the material can be located. The same article explains that no reliable means of finding major methane hydrate deposits exists.

Most of these resources that the popular press "announce" might as well be on the moon for the cost of getting usable energy out of them. The presumption seems to be that the energy companies and the scientists and engineers that work for them were too stupid or lazy to think to mine NG from methane hydrate.

"Mine material for NG that we can't find, that exists only at depths of 500 meters underwater where the pressure is 50 atmospheres, that then has to be hauled to a location where vast amounts of energy are needed to separate the NG from frozen water? All at a profit? Gee. Why didn't I think of that?"

[GRG55]

Re: too soon to call?

Has Berman, or any other specialist, commented about what costs would be to
process this stuff? It seems like the methane hydrates have been known for a while, so somebody should have a number.

The original article did not say much about cost, only physical quantities present.

You can't be serious. Mars has been known about for quite a while too. Does anybody have a number for what it will really cost to put a man (or woman) on Mars?

[GRG55]

Re: too soon to call?

If all you want is methane, it's pretty trivial, just melt the ice. There is no (covalent) chemical bond, just a frozen water clathrate entrapping the methane.

The catch is that melting water comes at an energy cost of 334 J/g. And there's a lot more water than methane. How much more depends on formation conditions.

If it was trivial this source of energy would be exploited.

It's anything but. To begin a gas hydrate need not contain very much water...but it has to have some in order to form. It's a common phenomenon in high pressure gas pipelines when the gas is not dehydrated (water removed) properly. And when they form they can be a real bitch to break to get the pipeline operating again because they are quite stable, even with the pipeline at atmospheric pressure on both sides of the plug.

These subsea hydrates have been known about for ages. This is just another media hypefest. No different from the clueless media hype about "15 Billion barrels of oil", and "50% increase in USA oil reserves" that followed in the wake of Chevron's deepwater Gulf of Mexico discovery at Jack in 2006, and no different from all the BS that was circulating in the media about Brazil becoming "the next member of OPEC" when it finally started to delineate the subsalt play in the deepwater off its coast. Wait a couple of weeks (or less) it'll go away. Wait another year (or less) and there will be yet another miraculous form of cheap energy being hyped in the know-nothing media.

[astonas]

Re: too soon to call?

If it was trivial this source of energy would be exploited.

It's anything but. To begin a gas hydrate need not contain very much water...but it has to have some in order to form. It's a common phenomenon in high pressure gas pipelines when the gas is not dehydrated (water removed) properly. And when they form they can be a real bitch to break to get the pipeline operating again because they are quite stable, even with the pipeline at atmospheric pressure on both sides of the plug.

These subsea hydrates have been known about for ages. This is just another media hypefest. No different from the clueless media hype about "15 Billion barrels of oil", and "50% increase in USA oil reserves" that followed in the wake of Chevron's deepwater Gulf of Mexico discovery at Jack in 2006, and no different from all the BS that was circulating in the media about Brazil becoming "the next member of OPEC" when it finally started to delineate the subsalt play in the deepwater off its coast. Wait a couple of weeks (or less) it'll go away. Wait another year (or less) and there will be yet another miraculous form of cheap energy being hyped in the know-nothing media.

I only meant that the extraction of methane from the hydrate is a trivially simple process.

I completely agree that the identification, collection, and transport would be prohibitive; I just thought that EJ had already covered that in abundant detail.

Regarding the relative concentration of water and methane in the hydrate, if the clathrate is to form a stable substance, many molecules of water need to be present for each molecule of methane incorporated. Else the hydrogen bonding network is insufficiently strong to form a solid.

Even when they form at high pressures in pipelines, I would argue that the majority constituent is still likely to be water. The geometry and energetics of ice formation would seem to require it. Sparse sol-gels are indeed possible, but they generally require a much larger molecule than good old H2O. ;)

[Polish_Silver]

Tickets to mars prices

You can't be serious. Mars has been known about for quite a while too. Does anybody have a number for what it will really cost to put a man (or woman) on Mars?

NASA and other people certainly could figure that out. They may not be honest with the public, but there are people who know how to figure that out. It's not rocket science. Oops!