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Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

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  • Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

    This isn't exactly new news, since the report in question came out last October, but I saw that it came up in Ezra Klein's post today "Have Seniors Really Paid for Medicare and Social Security?".

    Anyway, the first link is to a PDF of an analysis by the Urban Institute that compares the real present value of payroll taxes paid versus entitlement benefits received (or to be received). It is useful both as general background and as an illustration of how political narratives can infect otherwise objective pieces of analysis. It's the latter that I find most interesting.

    Here's my problem: As explained elsewhere on the Institute's website this analysis awards a 2% real rate of return to the "taxes paid" side of the ledger. That serves both to encourage a technically incorrect understanding of the linkage between payroll taxes paid and benefits received as well as inflate the apparent taxes paid.

    The proposition is that payroll taxes paid into the system might alternatively have been saved at a real 2% rate of return, so that the future returns on that hypothetical investment may be counted as having been “paid as taxes” by future beneficiaries of the entitlement system. I object to this on the basis that the entitlement programs are structured as pay-as-you-go programs rather than investment/savings programs, and the Supreme Court found in Flemming v. Nestor (1960) that payment of payroll taxes does not establish an individual contractual right to receive benefits. A reasonable interpretation is that current payroll taxes are spent to support current retirees, do not supply revenue from which to pay future benefits, and do not establish a contractual right to receive future benefits (as they would if the government was actually accepting such revenue “in trust” for the contributors). Since there is no financial or contractual relationship between the money one pays in as taxes and the money one receives as benefits, applying a real positive rate of return when calculating the net present value of past tax payments seems like an ideological attempt to create a linkage where none exists. After all, the notional 2% real return was never received by the Treasury’s coffers, so it seems specious to count those returns as “taxes paid” into the system; I don’t think the IRS would approve if I tried to settle some of my taxes this year by referencing the notional opportunity cost of my past tax payments. In my view, payroll taxes are what workers pay to trip over fewer elderly paupers in the streets and to reduce the burden they face caring for their elderly relatives -- in general, it is a good and humane thing, but it is all about the present: present tax-payers paying the expenses of present retirees. One can argue that there is a moral contract between generations, or that the law presently links payment of payroll tax to receipt of benefits (Flemming v. Nestor established that Congress has the power to unilaterally change or eliminate that linkage by changing the law), but the Urban Institute’s 2% real rate of return perpetuates a factually inaccurate view of the entitlements as some sort of individual savings program. The widespread misconception that payroll taxes establish a right to receive benefits – and that the taxes we individually pay play a role in funding the benefits we individually receive – is politically useful in defense of those benefits. So is inflating the amount paid into the system through taxes. But politics aside, neither of these things is accurate in a wonkish legal/numbers sense.

    At the end of the day, there's the question of what we *ought* to do. Everyone is entitled (ha!) to their vote. But distorted accounts of what we're *actually* doing and what we *actually* did, to cast one's own interests in the best (or at least self-righteous) light, is dirty pool.
    Last edited by ASH; February 18, 2013, 05:04 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

    klein's piece is interesting as one more evasion of the oddity that the u.s. spends twice as much gdp on healthcare and gets worse results than other oecd countries. first it's about raising taxes versus cutting entitlements, and then the danger of rising healthcare spending because of expensive new treatments. but there's nothing about the 25% of healthcare spending that goes to insurers' overheads and profits, or e.g. the law passed by congress denying medicare the opportunity to negotiate for lower drug prices.

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    • #3
      Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

      Originally posted by jk View Post
      klein's piece is interesting as one more evasion of the oddity that the u.s. spends twice as much gdp on healthcare and gets worse results than other oecd countries. first it's about raising taxes versus cutting entitlements, and then the danger of rising healthcare spending because of expensive new treatments. but there's nothing about the 25% of healthcare spending that goes to insurers' overheads and profits, or e.g. the law passed by congress denying medicare the opportunity to negotiate for lower drug prices.
      Check denninger today for an interesting insight into the medical cost issue.

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      • #4
        Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

        Klein blew it as JK points out. So you get 250,000 more out of Medicare than you paid in? Why is that? Not because of accounting tricks or because taxes are too low, but because healthcare in America is a scam.

        The study Denninger sites has been discussed widely including on itulip.

        The fact that there is no price discovery in the US for basic medical procedures like hip replacements or colonoscopies is the truest indicator of fraud.

        I remember coming to Asia 20 some years ago and being overwhelmed that you had to bargain for everything…exchange rates in the bank, rates you paid for electricity.

        Tables turn.

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        • #5
          Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

          Originally posted by Thailandnotes View Post
          Klein blew it as JK points out. So you get 250,000 more out of Medicare than you paid in? Why is that? Not because of accounting tricks or because taxes are too low, but because healthcare in America is a scam.
          Please explain to me how Medicare reimburses a hospital for a hip replacement. Do they simply pay the full price the hospital bills regardless of cost? Or are the benefits capped regardless of what the hospital charges?

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          • #6
            Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

            i don't know how medicare deals with hospitals, but in the outpatient world medicare sets a rate for a procedure and that's it- you can't bill any more than the "allowable" if you participate in medicare.

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            • #7
              Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

              Originally posted by jk View Post
              i don't know how medicare deals with hospitals, but in the outpatient world medicare sets a rate for a procedure and that's it- you can't bill any more than the "allowable" if you participate in medicare.
              So you can't "scam" Medicare by billing too high an amount because they set their own pay rates and you simply get whatever they decide is fair across the board?

              In other words, what hospitals quote up front as a price for someone paying cash has nothing whatsoever to do with how much Medicare would pay that hospital for the same procedure?

              (This is all assuming no literal fraud of billing for services that aren't provided or needed.)

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              • #8
                Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                Originally posted by DSpencer
                So you can't "scam" Medicare by billing too high an amount because they set their own pay rates and you simply get whatever they decide is fair across the board?
                You might not be able to scam Medicare on a given procedure, but Medicare cannot stop you from tacking on all sorts of extra procedures, tests, and what not.

                This is a well documented phenomenon.

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                • #9
                  Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                  Originally posted by DSpencer View Post
                  So you can't "scam" Medicare by billing too high an amount because they set their own pay rates and you simply get whatever they decide is fair across the board?

                  In other words, what hospitals quote up front as a price for someone paying cash has nothing whatsoever to do with how much Medicare would pay that hospital for the same procedure?

                  (This is all assuming no literal fraud of billing for services that aren't provided or needed.)
                  you can scam by saying you did more than you really did, but not by charging more for anything in particular.
                  and, yes, at least for outpatient services, the quoted price for a cash-paying customer bears no relationship to what medicare pays.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                    I didn't see it mentioned in the report. Did the total lifetime taxes category include the employer contribution?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                      Originally posted by LorenS View Post
                      I didn't see it mentioned in the report. Did the total lifetime taxes category include the employer contribution?
                      I did a quick calculation for one line on one table in the report and came up with SS taxes paid at about 14% of earnings.
                      That indicates the authors are including the employer contribution.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                        Originally posted by ASH View Post
                        ...The proposition is that payroll taxes paid into the system might alternatively have been saved at a real 2% rate of return...
                        ASH, you point out one of the most fundamental distortions in the whole discussion.

                        Much below the median income, people do not now, and never have, saved or invested. Before SS these people lived paycheck-to-paycheck, and when they could no longer work they became millions of destitute elderly folk slowly starving to death. Now they still live paycheck-to-paycheck, and when they can no longer work they can live in a little apartment and eat some real food with their social security check. Saving and investing anything was never an option for them, and still isn't - after paying modest living expense, there's nothing much left to save.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                          Originally posted by thriftyandboringinohio View Post
                          I did a quick calculation for one line on one table in the report and came up with SS taxes paid at about 14% of earnings.
                          That indicates the authors are including the employer contribution.
                          Yup (although I think you'd have to back-out the 2% compounding interest in order to convince yourself that the interest didn't account for the size of that figure). In their notes, they confirm that employer contributions were counted as "taxes paid" by the employee:

                          Do your tax estimates take into consideration the matching Medicare contributions made by employers?

                          Yes. The tax calculations assume that the individual pays both the employee and employer portion of the tax. Most economists believe that workers essentially bear the burden of this tax since the more employers pay, the less cash wages workers receive.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                            Originally posted by thriftyandboringinohio View Post
                            ASH, you point out one of the most fundamental distortions in the whole discussion.

                            Much below the median income, people do not now, and never have, saved or invested. Before SS these people lived paycheck-to-paycheck, and when they could no longer work they became millions of destitute elderly folk slowly starving to death. Now they still live paycheck-to-paycheck, and when they can no longer work they can live in a little apartment and eat some real food with their social security check. Saving and investing anything was never an option for them, and still isn't - after paying modest living expense, there's nothing much left to save.
                            I agree. I think that the authors of the Urban Institute's report are conflating two different types of analysis. One analysis would look at whether workers were getting "a good deal" for their payroll taxes, under the (false) model that the entitlements are a type of saving program, and so can be compared to the rate of return for private investments with a similar risk profile. Put X in and get Y out; what would have happened if X had been put into a different "investment". However, for an analysis of payments into and benefits out of a pay-as-you-go government program, it doesn't seem proper to count the opportunity cost of the payments in.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Urban Institute calculation of lifetime payroll taxes and entitlement benefits

                              Few seniors have actually paid for their Medicare benefits. According to an Urban Institute estimate, the typical retired couple paid $122,000 in lifetime Medicare taxes but can expect to receive benefits worth $387,000. Social Security is another story. There, the average retired couple paid $600,000 in lifetime taxes for $579,000 in benefits. Put together, it’s $722,000 in taxes for $966,000 in benefits. (All figures are adjusted for inflation.)
                              ---klein

                              I am skeptical of the SS numbers for another reason. The system has been getting less solvent each year.
                              The people who died in 1960 probably did pay more in than they got out. But not the ones dying more recently. The fact that SS is no longer in surplus means that current outflows are greater than inflows, even though population is still increasing. I am not sure how that correlates to individuals.

                              ASH, great analysis of the 2% return issue.

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