Gas Prices Rising

[DSpencer]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

We have a highlander hybrid... I can get 29 mph in the summer. It is amazing.

Out of curiosity, how much more did the hybrid version cost? From what I've seen the hybrid range seemed about 8-10k more expensive. For that money it claims to get 28/28 mpg city/highway as opposed to 20/25.

(12,000/28)*$4 = $1,714 per year
(12,000/25)*$4 = $1,920 per year
(12,000/20)*$4 = $2,400 per year

Savings = $206 - $686 per year. Assuming $8,000 price difference, $4per gallon and the middle of that range it would take ~18 years to make up the difference. However, this is the 4 cylinder non-hybrid which has less power and torque than the hybrid. The non hybrid V6 with 4wd gets 17/22:

(12,000/22)*$4 = $2181
(12,000/17)*$4 = $2823

Savings = 467 - 1109. So with the same assumptions it would take about 10 years. However, the non-hybrid V6 also lists MORE power and torque so that's not a fair comparison either. I can only assume the maintenance on the hybrid costs more, but maybe I'm wrong.

Obviously all this changes dramatically with 8 dollar gas (or higher mileage per year). But it would still take 5 years not counting the opportunity cost of the money and the fact that the car is less powerful. And that would be 8 dollars if it started day one.

What are the hybrid buyer's motivations? Is it environmental? Financial - fear of gas prices doubling or worse? Enjoyment of the technology? Super long commutes? I'm considering a hybrid for my next car so I'm not trying to be insulting. I just can't quite figure out if the numbers make sense or if it only makes sense for the sake of using less gas on principle or having the latest tech. I suppose the car is still also worth more after 5 years or 10 years so maybe that is the difference. The resale value gap probably widens as gas prices go up as well.

Has anyone else run the numbers? At what gas price is a hybrid worth the extra cost within 5 years?

[BadJuju]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

The best answer being a scooter or something like it because 80% of people in America live in urban areas. And the weather is rarely so bad that one cannot ride. If you can get 80% of your commuting done with one throughout the year, why not? You save a tremendous amount of money. And good scooters are extremely cheap.

[Polish_Silver]

Cars vs Chicks

. . .

Those are the facts in my case. I understand it is psychological and a social construct but that is the only reason I havent switched to those cars yet.

I poll female friends all the time "what do they think about a guy driving a smart car or mini cooper?"

The answer is overwhelmingly negative. Now you can always say those arent the women that you want to be romantically involved with due to their response but society is about perception.

I would rather not be perceived as homosexual or weak due to the vehicle that I drive (no offense to anyone who is homosexual, nothing against it and frankly dont care but I wish not to be perceived as such in the first minute I meet someone).
. ..

I'm impressed that your women would even say that. Most of them would think and act that way, but never say it. A few of them do not act like that, but it seems to be a pretty low percentage.

I've heard rumors that for decades the design philosophy in Detroit was based on this. The man choose's the car 90% based appearance, 10% on other factors.

I mean if POZ (and many other men) are choosing cars like this, it's only logical that Ford would have figured it out long ago.

[aaron]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

Our motivation for hybrid versus non-hybrid was PCO. If gas prices double (not far-fetched as that is what Europe currently pays), then it will make sense to have a vehicle that uses less gas. I think the difference in price is about $4000 . To me, it was "cheap insurance" to be able to get from point A to point B. The hybrid model also has more horsepower... I think our model was 20 more than the non-battery... it looks like only 10 hp more now.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Prius batteries

The hybrid manufacturers must be having to balance and manage the simultaneous discharge from the traction load with the re-charge from the gasoline powered generator and then throw into that mix the regenerative braking effects. Those must be some fancy computers & software that maximize the life of the traction battery pack...

Some pretty simple techniques can do that sort of current-flow management. Years ago we did engineering for the electrical systems on the F-16, and it allowed for several possible sources to power several loads, including batteries. It was just a wiring harness with blocking diodes to prevent reverse flow. Higher voltage wins. All passive physics; the batteries didn't supply a power bus until other sources were absent, and the diodes also prevented the more essential emergency buses from back-feeding into less-essential normal power bus networks. Clever and reliable, essentially instantaneous.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Cars vs Chicks

I'm impressed that your women would even say that. Most of them would think and act that way, but never say it. A few of them do not act like that, but it seems to be a pretty low percentage.

I've heard rumors that for decades the design philosophy in Detroit was based on this. The man choose's the car 90% based appearance, 10% on other factors.

I mean if POZ (and many other men) are choosing cars like this, it's only logical that Ford would have figured it out long ago.

A special talent it is to get people to say their true thoughts. I am not interested in facades haha!

[FrankL]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

I agree Spencer. I would like to purchase a mini cooper diesel or a smartcar BUT the social society hit I would take outweighs the marginal increase I get in MPG compared to a diesel 3 series.

Those are the facts in my case. I understand it is psychological and a social construct but that is the only reason I havent switched to those cars yet.

I poll female friends all the time "what do they think about a guy driving a smart car or mini cooper?"

The answer is overwhelmingly negative. Now you can always say those arent the women that you want to be romantically involved with due to their response but society is about perception.

I would rather not be perceived as homosexual or weak due to the vehicle that I drive (no offense to anyone who is homosexual, nothing against it and frankly dont care but I wish not to be perceived as such in the first minute I meet someone).

Just trying to have an honest conversation pertaining to how people are thinking. I have said many times I wish I lived in Europe because they seem to not have those social stigmas around cars.

It's funny, because I'd reason the exact opposite way: if you need a 'masculine car' for perception, it means you have to compensate for something. However, if you'd be comfortable driving a second hand bright green/purple/pink shitmobile (for example, the Fiat Multipla), you very likely are very confident about yourself and are not worried about needing to compensate for appearance.

And I'd chose my potential mates the same way; if they'd want to hook up with me because of superficial confidence (i.e. needing a 'muscular' car), then they would disqualify themselves to me.

But this is all hypothetical, as neither me nor my gf own a car (and we're both very content with that fact, living in urbanized western europe)

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

It's funny, because I'd reason the exact opposite way: if you need a 'masculine car' for perception, it means you have to compensate for something. However, if you'd be comfortable driving a second hand bright green/purple/pink shitmobile (for example, the Fiat Multipla), you very likely are very confident about yourself and are not worried about needing to compensate for appearance.

And I'd chose my potential mates the same way; if they'd want to hook up with me because of superficial confidence (i.e. needing a 'muscular' car), then they would disqualify themselves to me.

But this is all hypothetical, as neither me nor my gf own a car (and we're both very content with that fact, living in urbanized western europe)

hah Frank, there is a difference between a simple 3 series and a very large pickup truck with extra large wheels or a ferrari for example in terms of compensating for lack of something.

My writings above had more to do with how the average person thinks rather than how I think. I am recognizing these differences and pointing them out. This is Texas not Europe, Frank haha.

"And I'd chose my potential mates the same way; if they'd want to hook up with me because of superficial confidence (i.e. needing a 'muscular' car), then they would disqualify themselves to me."

Every girl or guy wants to hook up with the other for some superficial reason especially the first time they meet etc. Be that looks, tattoos, car,intelligence (although this cant be gleamed from a 2 min interaction usually) height, ethnicity etc those seem to be the facts.

Have you heard the saying "a girl knows if she will sleep with you within the first 30 seconds of meeting you?"

[lektrode]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

....
Have you heard the saying "a girl knows if she will sleep with you within the first 30 seconds of meeting you?"

yeah but ya know P... with them kind of grrlz one must always remember that one about

laying down with .... uhhhh.... dawgs.

[don]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

yeah but ya know P... with them kind of grrlz one must always remember that one about

laying down with .... uhhhh.... dawgs.

lek - the line is: she knows if she would sleep with you, not that she will

[don]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

80% of people in America live in urban areas

Are you sure about that - doesn't sound right. It would appear a majority live in suburbs.

[BadJuju]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

"As of 2011, about 250 million Americans live in or around urban areas. That means more than three-quarters of the U.S. population shares just about three percent of the U.S. land area."

Suburbs or not, it shouldn't stop someone from riding a scooter. I know an older lady that rides her motorcycle around 80 miles per day to and from work.

[vt]

Re: Gas Prices Rising

Don't need no gasoline with this baby:

http://www.teslamotors.com/models
Perfect for the 75% that live in urbanized areas

[GRG55]

Re: Prius batteries

Some pretty simple techniques can do that sort of current-flow management. Years ago we did engineering for the electrical systems on the F-16, and it allowed for several possible sources to power several loads, including batteries. It was just a wiring harness with blocking diodes to prevent reverse flow. Higher voltage wins. All passive physics; the batteries didn't supply a power bus until other sources were absent, and the diodes also prevented the more essential emergency buses from back-feeding into less-essential normal power bus networks. Clever and reliable, essentially instantaneous.

I was actually thinking more about battery longevity only.

Weight and lack of reliability are two major enemies in airplanes. Simple, elegant systems as the one you described are ideal. However I suspect that optimizing the life of the battery in the F16 wasn't an important systems design criteria compared to making the electrical system simple, light, and reliable.

I am theorizing that in a hybrid car additional complexity in the electrical power management system will be tolerated if it contributes to, say, a 20% increase in the battery life. My airplane sits in the hangar most of the time. The 24 volt aviation certified battery is expensive to replace, and unlike the F16 the taxpayer doesn't pay for it. I spent a bunch of money (about the price of a replacement battery!) on a "battery maintainer". It seems like a fancy version of the 30 year old 12v "battery charger" under my workshop bench (which does not have so many coloured LEDs). Apparently this "maintainer" does all sorts of sophisticated things when hooked up to the battery while keeping it charged.

The problem facing a hybrid car maker to solve for this same variable of maximum battery longevity is infinitely more complex. In addition to the items in my prior post, the batteries could be subject to sub-zero temps in a northern winter, and incredible heat in a southern summer...and I wonder if all that isn't taken into consideration in the battery "maintainer" designed into the car??

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Prius batteries

I was actually thinking more about battery longevity only.

Weight and lack of reliability are two major enemies in airplanes. Simple, elegant systems as the one you described are ideal. However I suspect that optimizing the life of the battery in the F16 wasn't an important systems design criteria compared to making the electrical system simple, light, and reliable.

I am theorizing that in a hybrid car additional complexity in the electrical power management system will be tolerated if it contributes to, say, a 20% increase in the battery life. My airplane sits in the hangar most of the time. The 24 volt aviation certified battery is expensive to replace, and unlike the F16 the taxpayer doesn't pay for it. I spent a bunch of money (about the price of a replacement battery!) on a "battery maintainer". It seems like a fancy version of the 30 year old 12v "battery charger" under my workshop bench (which does not have so many coloured LEDs). Apparently this "maintainer" does all sorts of sophisticated things when hooked up to the battery while keeping it charged.

The problem facing a hybrid car maker to solve for this same variable of maximum battery longevity is infinitely more complex. In addition to the items in my prior post, the batteries could be subject to sub-zero temps in a northern winter, and incredible heat in a southern summer...and I wonder if all that isn't taken into consideration in the battery "maintainer" designed into the car??

Our family was an early-ish adopter to the Prius hybrid craze.

We had one for a number of years.....bought an early gen model 2nd hand cheap.

We put a HUGE number of K's on it.....only thing it ever needed was tyres/petrol/windshield wipers.

Except for a horn cable....which the dealer wanted over $1000 for, plus freight and rental for a special installation tool that specific dealer didn't have and would need over a month to get the part/tool.

We went to a local aftermarket electrical outfit that installed a 2nd hand cable for under $150 the next day.

We sold it somewhere like 2 years ago thinking we had pretty much used it up and were going to be playing a dangerous game of russian roulette repair of the complex drivetrain someday........it's still going strong.

I have to commend Toyota for that particular car........it is built like a "tonka tuff" timex.

The wife has since moved onto a similar good car, but less complex. ;)

Battery "maintainer" or trickle charger can be a very good investment........particularly when it comes to areas with particularly harsh winters, diesel vehicles(higher compression requires more CCA better battery), and any vehicle that sits long-term.

Automotive batteries in vehicles that sit around long term without regular use can frequently die early deaths.

I'm waiting for a 4 door hatchback that can seat 5(even if tight), powered by a micro diesel that can be optimized with a quick start system(for urban stop/go) and a dual battery system to run it.

Made out of carbon fibre and weighing 600-700kg....getting 80-100mpg real world driving.