Interesting Historical Tidbit

[don]

In the 17th century, the Dutch built powerful fleets to protect their overseas trade, particularly the riches flowing from the Spice Islands — the region that would become known as the Dutch East Indies and eventually Indonesia. In 1880, the discovery of oil in the archipelago made them once again a potential source of enormous wealth.


But as oil became the underpinning of 20th century economies, the Netherlands this time failed to build the naval strength necessary to guard the islands from predatory enemies. Conservative economists clung to the gold standard in the 1930s, dooming the Dutch economy to a prolonged Depression. By the time the Navy began to see increased funding, it was much too late to change the outcome of the Japanese invasion of the Dutch East Indies.


In the 1930s, Dutch shipyards stood at the leading edge of naval technology: Dutch submarines first deployed the schnorkel breathing device, for example, and Dutch warships boasted the sophisticated Hazemeyer fire control system that would be enthusiastically copied by the Royal Navy and others. The Netherlands had the means to create a large and modern fleet, and the oil wealth of Borneo and Sumatra provided the motive. But by seeing deficits as a more lethal enemy than the Axis, the government doomed both the home country and the colonies to defeat and occupation.

(from a brief essay on Dutch naval capacity circa December '41)

[c1ue]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

It wasn't the gold standard. It was the depletion of peat - which led to much Dutch industry shifting to England (and its coal).

By the 1800s, the Dutch vs. English rivalry well already settled.

[don]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

It wasn't the gold standard. It was the depletion of peat - which led to much Dutch industry shifting to England (and its coal).

By the 1800s, the Dutch vs. English rivalry well already settled.

So the Dutch weren't in the Spice Islands in 1941 for oil. Well for peat's sake . . . .

[flintlock]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

Yes, but was it really possible for a small nation like the Netherlands to match Japan ship for ship on the other side of the world? Even the USA had its hands full with Japan as well. And Japanese air power had as much to do with their demise anyway. Not sure a fleet of shiny new Dutch ships at the bottom of the ocean would have made much difference.

[don]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

Yes, but was it really possible for a small nation like the Netherlands to match Japan ship for ship on the other side of the world? Even the USA had its hands full with Japan as well. And Japanese air power had as much to do with their demise anyway. Not sure a fleet of shiny new Dutch ships at the bottom of the ocean would have made much difference.

Agree with everything you say - the article has manifold holes in it - but peat ain't one of them

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

In the 17th century, the Dutch built powerful fleets to protect their overseas trade, particularly the riches flowing from the Spice Islands — the region that would become known as the Dutch East Indies and eventually Indonesia. In 1880, the discovery of oil in the archipelago made them once again a potential source of enormous wealth.


But as oil became the underpinning of 20th century economies, the Netherlands this time failed to build the naval strength necessary to guard the islands from predatory enemies. Conservative economists clung to the gold standard in the 1930s, dooming the Dutch economy to a prolonged Depression. By the time the Navy began to see increased funding, it was much too late to change the outcome of the Japanese invasion of the Dutch East Indies.


In the 1930s, Dutch shipyards stood at the leading edge of naval technology: Dutch submarines first deployed the schnorkel breathing device, for example, and Dutch warships boasted the sophisticated Hazemeyer fire control system that would be enthusiastically copied by the Royal Navy and others. The Netherlands had the means to create a large and modern fleet, and the oil wealth of Borneo and Sumatra provided the motive. But by seeing deficits as a more lethal enemy than the Axis, the government doomed both the home country and the colonies to defeat and occupation.

(from a brief essay on Dutch naval capacity circa December '41)

Hey! But now they turn out the tallest people in the world and world renown kickboxers!

Roman Dekkars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramon_Dekkers

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186

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[c1ue]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

So the Dutch weren't in the Spice Islands in 1941 for oil. Well for peat's sake . . . .

No, because the Dutch acquired their presence there in the 1600s under the aegis of the Dutch East Indies company. It was one of the remnants of the Dutch overseas empire which the Netherlands managed to hold on to after losing to England.

So unless you're going to tell me that someone somewhere in the Netherlands was predicting the presence of oil literally 300 years later, my original comment still holds.

In the 17th century, the Netherlands was able to build fleets competitive with England. It was not until after Peak Peat that the Dutch were no longer able to keep up, and it was (coincidentally?) then that the Dutch lost out.

Equally the notion that the Dutch could have built a competitive fleet to protect its SouthEast Asian possessions against Japan - ludicrous.

Netherlands GDP in 1930: $44 billion
Japan GDP in 1930: $118 billion
UK GDP in 1930: $250 billion

Netherlands GDP in 1700: $4 billion
UK GDP in 1700: $10.7 billion
^
|
Peak Peat
|
v
Netherlands GDP in 1820: $4.2 billion
UK GDP in 1820: $36.7 billion

Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...42080656,d.cGE

[GRG55]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

It was all over for the Dutch when this happened:



If only they had Bernanke and Geithner equivalents to reflate asset markets, all that followed never would have happened, and today both oil and an iTulip subscription would be priced in Guilders on international markets...

[c1ue]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

Actually, no.

Netherlands GDP in 1600: $2 billion
Netherlands GDP in 1700: $4 billion

As crazy as the Tulip bubble was, it didn't destroy the Netherlands' economy for a century.

For that matter, I think there are significant differences between a bubble in discretionary items - whether Tulips or Monets - vs. non-discretionary things like energy and housing.

[llanlad2]

Re: Interesting Historical Tidbit

No, because the Dutch acquired their presence there in the 1600s under the aegis of the Dutch East Indies company. It was one of the remnants of the Dutch overseas empire which the Netherlands managed to hold on to after losing to England.

So unless you're going to tell me that someone somewhere in the Netherlands was predicting the presence of oil literally 300 years later, my original comment still holds.

In the 17th century, the Netherlands was able to build fleets competitive with England. It was not until after Peak Peat that the Dutch were no longer able to keep up, and it was (coincidentally?) then that the Dutch lost out.

New York ended up changing from New Amsterdam as a legacy of the Anglo-Dutch wars.

The Dutch kept the spice islands while the Brits kept NY in a treaty. Originally Nutmeg and Mace were only found on these few islands.

Once Nutmeg and other spices were grown on other islands the monopoly was ended and their importance was null.

Run (also known as Pulo Run, Puloroon, or Rhun^[1]) is one of the smallest islands of the Banda Islands, which are a part of Indonesia. It is about 3 km long and less than 1 km wide.
In the 17th century, Run was of great economic importance because of the value of the spices nutmeg and mace which are obtained from the nutmeg tree (Myristica fragans), once found exclusively in the Banda Islands. During the history of the spice trade, sailors of theEnglish East India Company of the second expedition of James Lancaster, John Davis, Sir Henry Middleton and his brother John who stayed in Bantam on Java, first reached the island in 1603 and developed good contacts with the inhabitants.
On December 25, 1616,^[2] Captain Nathaniel Courthope reached Run to defend it against the claims of the Dutch East India Company. A contract with the inhabitants was signed accepting the James I of England as sovereign of the island. As a result, Run is considered to be the first English overseas colony. After four years of siege by the Dutch and the death of Nathaniel Courthope in an attack in 1620, the English and their local allies departed the island.
According to the Treaty of Westminster ending the First Anglo-Dutch War of 1652–1654, Run should have been returned to England. The first attempt in 1660 failed because of formal constraints by the Dutch; after the second attempt in 1665 the English traders were expelled in the same year, and the Dutch destroyed the nutmeg trees.
After the second Anglo-Dutch War of 1665–1667, England and the United Provinces of the Netherlands agreed in the Treaty of Breda to the status quo: The English kept the island of Manhattan, which the Duke of York (the future James II, brother of Charles II), had occupied in 1664, renaming the city on that island from New Amsterdam to New York; while in return Run was formally abandoned to the Dutch. The Dutch monopoly on nutmeg and mace was destroyed by the transfer of nutmeg trees to Ceylon, Grenada, Singapore and other British colonies in 1817, after the capture of the main island, Bandalontor, in 1810 by Captain Cole, leading to the decline of the Dutch supremacy in the spice trade. There are, however, still nutmeg trees growing on Run today.