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  • Not All the News is Bad

    Law Schools’ Applications Fall as Costs Rise and Jobs Are Cut



    By ETHAN BRONNER

    Law school applications are headed for a 30-year low, reflecting increased concern over soaring tuition, crushing student debt and diminishing prospects of lucrative employment upon graduation.

    As of this month, there were 30,000 applicants to law schools for the fall, a 20 percent decrease from the same time last year and a 38 percent decline from 2010, according to the Law School Admission Council. Of some 200 law schools nationwide, only 4 have seen increases in applications this year. In 2004 there were 100,000 applicants to law schools; this year there are likely to be 54,000.

    Such startling numbers have plunged law school administrations into soul-searching debate about the future of legal education and the profession over all.




    “We are going through a revolution in law with a time bomb on our admissions books,” said William D. Henderson, a professor of law at Indiana University, who has written extensively on the issue. “Thirty years ago if you were looking to get on the escalator to upward mobility, you went to business or law school. Today, the law school escalator is broken.”

    Responding to the new environment, schools are planning cutbacks and accepting students they would not have admitted before.

    A few schools, like the Vermont Law School, have started layoffs and buyouts of professors. Others, like at the University of Illinois, have offered across-the-board tuition discounts to keep up enrollments. Brian Leiter of the University of Chicago Law School, who runs a blog on the topic, said he expected as many as 10 schools to close over the coming decade, and half to three-quarters of all schools to reduce class size, faculty and staff.

    After the normal dropout of some applicants, the number of those matriculating in the fall will be about 38,000, the lowest since 1977, when there were two dozen fewer law schools, according to Brian Z. Tamanaha of Washington University Law School, the author of “Failing Law Schools.”

    The drop in applications is widely viewed as directly linked to perceptions of the declining job market. Many of the reasons that law jobs are disappearing are similar to those for disruptions in other knowledge-based professions, namely the growth of the Internet. Research is faster and easier, requiring fewer lawyers, and is being outsourced to less expensive locales, including West Virginia and overseas.

    In addition, legal forms are now available online and require training well below a lawyer’s to fill them out.

    In recent years there has also been publicity about the debt load and declining job prospects for law graduates, especially of schools that do not generally provide employees to elite firms in major cities. Last spring, the American Bar Association released a study showing that within nine months of graduation in 2011, only 55 percent of those who finished law school found full-time jobs that required passage of the bar exam.

    “Students are doing the math,” said Michelle J. Anderson, dean of the City University of New York School of Law. “Most law schools are too expensive, the debt coming out is too high and the prospect of attaining a six-figure-income job is limited.”

    Mr. Tamanaha of Washington University said the rise in tuition and debt was central to the decrease in applications. In 2001, he said, the average tuition for private law school was $23,000; in 2012 it was $40,500 (for public law schools the figures were $8,500 and $23,600). He said that 90 percent of law students finance their education by taking on debt. And among private law school graduates, the average debt in 2001 was $70,000; in 2011 it was $125,000.

    “We have been sharply increasing tuition during a low-inflation period,” he said of law schools collectively, noting that a year at a New York City law school can run to more than $80,000 including lodging and food. “And we have been maximizing our revenue. There is no other way to describe it. We will continue to need lawyers, but we need to bring the price down.”

    Some argue that the drop is an indictment of the legal training itself — a failure to keep up with the profession’s needs.
    “We have a significant mismatch between demand and supply,” said Gillian K. Hadfield, professor of law and economics at the University of Southern California. “It’s not a problem of producing too many lawyers. Actually, we have an exploding demand for both ordinary folk lawyers and big corporate ones.”

    She said that, given the structure of the legal profession, it was hard to make a living dealing with matters like mortgage and divorce, and that big corporations were dissatisfied with what they see as the overly academic training at elite law schools.
    The drop in law school applications is unlike what is happening in almost any other graduate or professional training, except perhaps to veterinarians. Medical school applications have been rising steadily for the past decade.

    Debra W. Stewart, president of the Council of Graduate Schools, said applicants to master of business degrees were steady — a 0.8 percent increase among Americans in 2011 after a decade of substantial growth. But growth in foreign student applications — 13 percent over the same period — made up the difference, something from which law schools cannot benefit, since foreigners have less interest in American legal training.

    In the legal academy, there has been discussion about how to make training less costly and more relevant, with special emphasis on the last year of law school. A number of schools, including elite ones like Stanford, have increased their attention to clinics, where students get hands-on training. Northeastern Law School in Boston, which has long emphasized in-the-field training, has had one of the smallest decreases in its applicant pool this year, according to Jeremy R. Paul, the new dean.

    There is also discussion about permitting students to take the bar after only two years rather than three, a decision that would have to be made by the highest officials of a state court system. In New York, the proposal is under active consideration largely because of a desire to reduce student debt.

    Some, including Professor Hadfield of the University of Southern California, have called for one- or two-year training programs to create nonlawyer specialists for many tasks currently done by lawyers. Whether or not such changes occur, for now the decline is creating what many see as a cultural shift.

    “In the ’80s and ’90s, a liberal arts graduate who didn’t know what to do went to law school,” Professor Henderson of Indiana said. “Now you get $120,000 in debt and a default plan of last resort whose value is just too speculative. Students are voting with their feet. There are going to be massive layoffs in law schools this fall. We won’t have the bodies we need to meet the payroll.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/31/ed...t.html?hp&_r=0

  • #2
    Re: Not All the News is Bad

    Not being a lawyer or a law student, I can chuckle at this.

    I think it is so funny how lawyers have fallen off the radar as "most hated professionals" in this country....replaced by, bankers, politicians, and ???

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Not All the News is Bad

      From a lawyer friend - a nice guy - after reading the above article:

      Finally someone is picking up that there are not enough jobs for new attorneys. Many are not finding jobs and cannot even just hang out their own shingle. We had an law clerk who is now painting houses in SF. Not Good.

      Not so good for the house painters either . . .

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Not All the News is Bad

        Originally posted by don View Post
        From a lawyer friend - a nice guy - after reading the above article:

        Finally someone is picking up that there are not enough jobs for new attorneys. Many are not finding jobs and cannot even just hang out their own shingle. We had an law clerk who is now painting houses in SF. Not Good.

        Not so good for the house painters either . . .
        I talked to a young man just last week who is in his 20s, passed the bar in three states, and is living with his parents and working three restaurant jobs to pay off student loans. His main complaint was that he knows he needs to network to find more gainful employment, but that he can't afford to take the time off to do it thanks to the large private student loan debt he accumulated.

        Not good. And that's three cooks' part time jobs that are taken up in the meanwhile.

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        • #5
          Re: Not All the News is Bad

          I should clarify my earlier post - I thought Don's title was nicely ironic, that's what made me chuckle....

          ....but this student debt thing is ridiculous. I feel sorry for the people who were sold on the "its a good investment" notion.

          As my son see college acceptances come in, and I quickly figure out what our cost will be all in (for him, some of these first letters come in with indications of what scholarship money he will get), still with loans etc, the answer keeps coming back to me....."IN-STATE state school" (Rutgers).

          Which - really is a sorry state of affairs.

          I'm an engineer (read, make a good salary, but its not amazing). My wife, also an engineer (by education, she has been raising the kids the last 14 years), works part time to help us address rising costs.....

          So you have 2 engineers, and whose kids are most likely to become engineers? I'd say about 50% of the kids who go into the field today are children of engineers (ok, I pulled that stat out of my b_ _ _ , however, I'm sure its in a plus/minus range, the nut doesn't fall far from the tree). However.....kids of engineers parents CAN'T AFFORD to send them to anything but a state school.

          FWIW - my son, when he toured Rutgers last year, announced, "I could go here". I'm glad he's happy with his options. I'm glad it is a good school....but not necessarily the best in the area of his interest.

          So much for choice.

          Because obviously, he and I have a clear understanding about what is a reasonable amount of debt to graduate with....and also, he's well aware that grad school is almost expected in some areas of study today, so we know that undergrad isn't the end of college spending.

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          • #6
            Re: Not All the News is Bad

            i know you can't get out of student loan debt through bankruptcy, but you can't get blood out of a rock either. If you don't pay your student loan and you have no assests what can they do to you? Prision? I'm sure they can trash your credit rating, and garnish your wages, but ... you don't have job. ha ha. Suppose after 1,2 years of not paying you actually do find a livelyhood in law making 50K or so. How much would the banksters take? Would they leave a livable wage? whatever that means.

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            • #7
              Re: Not All the News is Bad

              Originally posted by wayiwalk View Post

              Because obviously, he and I have a clear understanding about what is a reasonable amount of debt to graduate with....and also, he's well aware that grad school is almost expected in some areas of study today, so we know that undergrad isn't the end of college spending.
              I was surprised recently when I was talking to couple of colleagues about cost of grad school education and education in general and I get the same feeling from your last sentence. I know of no one who has paid for their grad school education, out of pocket. I graduated 5 years ago and I agree that times are tougher, but, if one goes to a fairly ranked school (top 50-75 is decent enough), is smart enough and hardworking, he/she will always land with some kind of assistance ship. Scholarship's are getting harder for master's students, but they are still there and one has to fight harder to get them, but I cannot imagine someone getting a PhD without a full scholarship, that includes tuition waiver and stipend. If I was starting my undergrad now, I would find professors whose research interests match mine (probably in the sophomore or junior year) and start asking him for work such as assisting him or his grad students.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Not All the News is Bad

                Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                i know you can't get out of student loan debt through bankruptcy, but you can't get blood out of a rock either. If you don't pay your student loan and you have no assests what can they do to you? Prision? I'm sure they can trash your credit rating, and garnish your wages, but ... you don't have job. ha ha. Suppose after 1,2 years of not paying you actually do find a livelyhood in law making 50K or so. How much would the banksters take? Would they leave a livable wage? whatever that means.
                They can't take everything. I think if it's a federal loan, then they can garnish 15% of wages, uncapped, without a court order. If it's a private loan, I believe the limit is 25% of wages up to 30 times minimum wage with a court order. But they also will wreck your credit and continue to apply fees and interest (especially fees with private loans) if you miss payments.

                Some states are bringing back debtors' prisons in a round-about way. If you get a court summons due to private student loans and fail to show up, a default judgement can be ordered, in which case the debtor must pay the creditor whatever is indicated In the event this does not happen, a bench warrant will be issued and some jail time may result (probably not much). It all depends. This happens on occasion, and usually it occurs to kids who move out-of-state and either don't have the will or the money to fly back for whatever court hearing is ordered. But states are almost universally good at sharing warrant data these days. So all of the sudden, you get pulled over and you're hauled away.

                But with more and more employers and landlords wanting background checks, credit checks, and everything else, screwing up your credit while unemployed just after school can really mess things up. Under the table work is usually best for this sort of thing. I read an article somewhere last year about a couple with children who were law school grads working under the table in NYC to avoid garnishment and raise their children. But I think that's probably a somewhat rare case.

                Law school was by far the worst scenario for loans, though. There's by far the least aid, fewest grants, fewest scholarships, and least percentage tuition covered by federal loans than any other education route one could take.

                The number of Americans with at least two student loan debt accounts active on their credit histories has jumped from 12 million in 2005 to 26 million in 2012. The average interest rate is 7.4%. The average loan balance is $24k (this includes people who have paid almost everything off, so the average kid graduating is coming out with quite a bit more than that). Delinquency rates are up to 11.4%. They're driven largely by private student loans and private, for-profit colleges.

                The law school applicants dwindling is a rational market response. Usually, by the time a kid finishes undergrad and does good enough to qualify for law school, they've got a good enough handle on things to make a cost-benefit analysis.

                What's more frightening is the for-profit colleges marketing degrees in "digital technology" or "forensic psychology" to 16 and 17 year olds during MTV commercials. The whole rational actor model breaks down there. And the bubble can get a lot bigger on that front. Student loans considered sub-prime now have 33.2% delinquency rate. That's a problem. And it'll keep growing.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Not All the News is Bad

                  Originally posted by photoncounter View Post
                  I was surprised recently when I was talking to couple of colleagues about cost of grad school education and education in general and I get the same feeling from your last sentence. I know of no one who has paid for their grad school education, out of pocket. I graduated 5 years ago and I agree that times are tougher, but, if one goes to a fairly ranked school (top 50-75 is decent enough), is smart enough and hardworking, he/she will always land with some kind of assistance ship. Scholarship's are getting harder for master's students, but they are still there and one has to fight harder to get them, but I cannot imagine someone getting a PhD without a full scholarship, that includes tuition waiver and stipend. If I was starting my undergrad now, I would find professors whose research interests match mine (probably in the sophomore or junior year) and start asking him for work such as assisting him or his grad students.
                  For PhD students this is still largely true - although a small but growing number are still going in taking partial or no support and hoping to find funding later.

                  For MA or MS or MBA students, I think that funding is no longer usual. The vast majority take out loans for all or almost all of their education. That's the new normal.

                  The problem is that with a growing pool of bachelor's degree holders in a growing pool of unemployed 18-29 year olds, how does one stand out? I think it quickly becomes an arms race. An MA or MS becomes the BA or BS of yesterday.
                  Last edited by dcarrigg; January 31, 2013, 03:23 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Not All the News is Bad

                    Originally posted by charliebrown View Post
                    i know you can't get out of student loan debt through bankruptcy, but you can't get blood out of a rock either. If you don't pay your student loan and you have no assests what can they do to you? Prision? I'm sure they can trash your credit rating, and garnish your wages, but ... you don't have job. ha ha. Suppose after 1,2 years of not paying you actually do find a livelyhood in law making 50K or so. How much would the banksters take? Would they leave a livable wage? whatever that means.
                    Just wait until people without jobs but not on public assistance and who deliberately (even if carelessly) chose not to buy health insurance, don't pay their penalties for healthcare.....isn't the IRS the "collector" for these fines.

                    What happens if you don't pay your "taxes"? Jail?

                    Or will the gov't look the other way. There it is again...the faceplant....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Not All the News is Bad

                      Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                      For PhD students this is still largely true - although a small but growing number are still going in taking partial or no support and hoping to find funding later.

                      For MA or MS or MBA students, I think that funding is no longer usual. The vast majority take out loans for all or almost all of their education. That's the new normal.

                      The problem is that with a growing pool of bachelor's degree holders in a growing pool of unemployed 18-29 year olds, how does one stand out? I think it quickly becomes an arms race. An MA or MS becomes the BA or BS of yesterday.
                      Good points both of you.

                      What I see at my job is junior staff who are carrying loan balances, going to school at night (with $ assistance from the company), but really dealing with the challenge of cash flow in terms of having enough money to pay for tuition up front, as they have to wait until after they get their grades before getting reimbursement from the company. Particularly tough between fall and spring semesters.

                      Grad school tuition rates are as high as undergrad.....so there is no easy way out here.

                      Regarding photoncounters comments - definitely good advice....but the competition is swift. My niece is finishing up her senior year at U of Delaware. She got plugged into projects and it does seem to be helping her grad school search.

                      But I also see (based on resumes that cross my desk from new grad engineers) that a lot of schools are making such research projects available, either just expanding the number of opportunities, or making it part of the curriculum.

                      When you consider that alot of research is funded by the US gov't, I guess in a round about way, rather than this research being performed by the private sector (read, paid income, income taxes, payroll taxes, etc), it is now being performed by college students for free, free of those tax related requirements and regulatory work requirements, or worse, since some of this counts as course work, the student pays for the priveledge.

                      Ah, long week here, up past midnight for 3 nights, I sure am getting cynical.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Not All the News is Bad

                        Originally posted by wayiwalk View Post
                        Just wait until people without jobs but not on public assistance and who deliberately (even if carelessly) chose not to buy health insurance, don't pay their penalties for healthcare.....isn't the IRS the "collector" for these fines.

                        What happens if you don't pay your "taxes"? Jail?

                        Or will the gov't look the other way. There it is again...the faceplant....
                        I think in the first draft of the ACA it was jail. Now they can't bring criminal penalties at you for not complying with the mandate.

                        It's even more nuts because I think it'll just be a little box on your 1040 where you basically "check yes to say I did not have health insurance last year." If you don't check that box, you don't instantly owe $700, or whatever it moves up to in 2016, and the IRS will have to prove you didn't have health insurance.

                        Well, what will they use to prove it? A health insurance card? Like this? They're not exactly hard to copy. I guess they could call up whatever insurance company to check...but that's quite a bit of manpower - between running down insurance cards and verifying them, we've got to be talking at least $200 before any enforcement action on $700 even begins.

                        I guess they have to hope people are honest.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Not All the News is Bad

                          Originally posted by wayiwalk View Post
                          Not being a lawyer or a law student, I can chuckle at this.

                          I think it is so funny how lawyers have fallen off the radar as "most hated professionals" in this country....replaced by, bankers, politicians, and ???
                          ...I'd add tech workers ... and scientists.... at least once the public finally figures out what these two disciplines are doing to them.
                          The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge ~D Boorstin

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