The Vati - Can Can

[makimanos]

Re: Worldly Temptation

There isn't only one truth to every question. This is a tumultuous world. Why there are two St Thomas churches on 5th avenue? Have faith.
Faith in God is far more important than contradictory truths.

[don]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Here's a fact-based observation - Europe's religious wars, which when on for centuries, make the Sunni/Shiite conflict look like a family squabble. Organized religion's path of destruction goes beyond the pope's collection of properties and jewels . . .

[vinoveri]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Here's a fact-based observation - Europe's religious wars, which when on for centuries, make the Sunni/Shiite conflict look like a family squabble. Organized religion's path of destruction goes beyond the pope's collection of properties and jewels . . .

It's a darn good thing Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists or the 20th century may have been our last. Their light-handed touch makes the knights of the days of chivalry appears as savages. (sarcasm ON)

[aaron]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Hitler was Christian. I do not know about the others.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Hitler was Christian. I do not know about the others.

Hitler was a christian in name only, not a true Christian.

[aaron]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Where does George Bush fall in that line: christian or Christian?

In my opinion, if you say you are a Christian then you are a Christian. To label him an atheist is an insult to all atheists. And, it seems like revisionist history to me. It is inconvenient that he was Christian, so let's just change him to some other group to hate.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Where does George Bush fall in that line: christian or Christian?

In my opinion, if you say you are a Christian then you are a Christian. To label him an atheist is an insult to all atheists. And, it seems like revisionist history to me. It is inconvenient that he was Christian, so let's just change him to some other group to hate.

Christians like all people are sinners, but they recognize that and know they are blessed by the saving grace of Christ's blood on the cross. To do the things Hitler allowed labels him IMHO as a christian in name only. There are many who call themselves Christians that really are not. Of course, only God knows for sure who is and who is not.

[c1ue]

Re: Worldly Temptation

Really, why is anyone shocked?

The Catholic Church as it exists today is the descendant of a dynastic power struggle.

I've noted before: read up on the Council of Chalcedon to see how Rome created a stranglehold (and created the Pope) from what before had been an equal group of 9 Patriarchs and Patriarchies - which in turn were supposed to be representatives of the Apostles. The descendents of the ostracized (i.e. losing or separated Patriarchies) still exist today: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Copts, and so forth.

Martin Luther was certainly a reformer, but his reforms covered only Western Europe - which at the time was pretty much the only place Catholicism held sway. From European Catholicism, we then get the various Reformation outcomes: the Lutherans, the Calvinists, the Anglicans (though really these should be called the Henry divorcists), the Methodists, and so forth. Ironically it was an offshoot of the Henry divorcist offshoot of the Catholic empire - the Puritans - which were one of the earliest colonists to America, and whose ancestors today are anything but Puritan, instead forming a significant part of the American power system.

Presidents descended from the Puritans:

Taft
Nixon
Coolidge
both Adams
Garfield
Bushes
Pierce
There are others.

[LazyBoy]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

Everyone seems sees the wealth of the Catholic Church, or any other long standing religious institution and get upset. People seem to be upset because the poor are giving up their tiny wealth so that the Pope and his cronies can live a luxurious lifestyle. First you must understand that most of the property and wealth of the Church is not under any individual's control. Just take the Pope for example, he can't just sell off a jewel and buy a Ferrari.

Could he sell some jewels and, I don't know, feed some people?? Or help the unfortunate?? Or reduce the need for tithing to support their own churches?

I am not sure what other kind of people are more trustworthy with all that huge amount of wealth than people who are suppose to be celibate and live the ideals of Christ.

But why have the wealth?

[ddn3f]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

I might be wrong on this, but...

Helping the poor not the number 1 objective of the Church. Spreading the Good News is the number 1 objective. Helping the poor and needy is secondary and is used as a way to spread the good news. You need money to maintain administration, keep records, glorify God, etc. Feeding the hungry does nothing for their spiritual wellness. By selling everything and just going out to feed the hungry does not serve the purpose of why the Church was formed in the first place.

As for tithing, the Catholic Church actually does not specify any amount, so you give what you can. There are others that specify 10%. Actually the Church would rather prefer you put in a lot more time and effort than guilting you to give whatever money you think is acceptable.

As for having the wealth, it's to do "God's Work." Like I said, the wealth is not the personal property of these priests, bishops, monks, Popes, etc.

Could he sell some jewels and, I don't know, feed some people?? Or help the unfortunate?? Or reduce the need for tithing to support their own churches?

But why have the wealth?

[shiny!]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

I might be wrong on this, but...

Helping the poor not the number 1 objective of the Church. Spreading the Good News is the number 1 objective. Helping the poor and needy is secondary and is used as a way to spread the good news. You need money to maintain administration, keep records, glorify God, etc. Feeding the hungry does nothing for their spiritual wellness. By selling everything and just going out to feed the hungry does not serve the purpose of why the Church was formed in the first place.

As for tithing, the Catholic Church actually does not specify any amount, so you give what you can. There are others that specify 10%. Actually the Church would rather prefer you put in a lot more time and effort than guilting you to give whatever money you think is acceptable.

As for having the wealth, it's to do "God's Work." Like I said, the wealth is not the personal property of these priests, bishops, monks, Popes, etc.

I disagree that great wealth is necessary to do "God's Work". Jesus didn't need it, Gandhi didn't need it, nor did Guru Nanak. IMHO, where spiritual work is concerned, accruing wealth beyond what's necessary to get the job done is a corruptive influence. I think this is true for any religion.

Compare the Church's enormous wealth with how 12-Step Programs view money. 12-Step programs, which are spiritual but not religious, spread their messages to those in need using the least amount of money possible. AA's Twelve Traditions are the organizing principles behind every 12-Step group. They are:

The Twelve Traditions

One—Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

Two—For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

Three—The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking.

Four—Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

Five—Each group has but one primary purpose—to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

Six—An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

Seven—Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

Eight—Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers.

Nine—A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.

Ten—Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy.

Eleven—Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

Twelve—Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

The Twelve Traditions
(Excerpts from the Long Form)

5.—Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose—that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.

6.—Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business. ...

7.—The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.—Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional. We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to perform those services for which we might otherwise have to engage nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our usual A.A. “12 Step” work is never to be paid for.

9.—Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating leadership is the best. The small group may elect its secretary, the large group its rotating committee, and the groups of a large metropolitan area their central or intergroup committee, which often employs a full-time secretary. The trustees of the General Service Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A. contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principal newspaper, the A.A. Grapevine. All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness.

11.—Our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends recommend us.

12.—And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principle of anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

-
Vatican City:

[ddn3f]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

I disagree that great wealth is necessary to do "God's Work". Jesus didn't need it, Gandhi didn't need it, nor did Guru Nanak. IMHO, where spiritual work is concerned, accruing wealth beyond what's necessary to get the job done is a corruptive influence. I think this is true for any religion.

I will agree that accruing wealth beyond what is necessary is a corruptive influence. Much of the Catholic Church's wealth is in land, churches, artwork, relics, etc, that will never be sold. Even if they had tons of cash lying around, the people running the show should have the least temptations. The wealth of the Catholic Church is there, everyone can second guess whether it's too much or not enough wealth to do what needs to be done. But of all the people in the world, if these celibate men really do their best to follow the ideals of Christ (and it seems everyone tries to hold them to it), then they have the least temptation of any person to abuse that wealth. Of course history shows there have been massive abuses.

[jiimbergin]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

I might be wrong on this, but...

Helping the poor not the number 1 objective of the Church. Spreading the Good News is the number 1 objective. Helping the poor and needy is secondary and is used as a way to spread the good news. You need money to maintain administration, keep records, glorify God, etc. Feeding the hungry does nothing for their spiritual wellness. By selling everything and just going out to feed the hungry does not serve the purpose of why the Church was formed in the first place.

As for tithing, the Catholic Church actually does not specify any amount, so you give what you can. There are others that specify 10%. Actually the Church would rather prefer you put in a lot more time and effort than guilting you to give whatever money you think is acceptable.

As for having the wealth, it's to do "God's Work." Like I said, the wealth is not the personal property of these priests, bishops, monks, Popes, etc.

+1. very well said.

[makimanos]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

Although the church flurished when Christians were persecuted, these days are different. You can't fight a machine gun only with prayers. Evil old enemies from the misty past shake the foundation of Christianity. One may wonder; what is the purpose of our presence on earth?

[jiimbergin]

Re: The Vati - Can Can

Although the church flourished when Christians were persecuted, these days are different. You can't fight a machine gun only with prayers. Evil old enemies from the misty past shake the foundation of Christianity. One may wonder; what is the purpose of our presence on earth?

Well, I respectfully disagree. Christianity has flourished under persecution since not long after our Lord's resurrection. In China under persecution Christianity also flourished. Today there are more true Christians in China than in the US. Christianity is growing more in Africa under very difficult conditions than anywhere else.

God tells us He works best when we are at our weakest. Machine guns are no match for God. Prayers can fight anything. Our purpose is still the Great Commission.