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  • More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

    For those of us in the cheap seats, I thought it would be worth continuing this thread . . . .


    http://www.businessinsider.com/gartm...tatters-2013-1

    Now, Dennis Gartman, publisher of The Gartman Letter, writes that gold bugs who have operated on the thesis that the Fed has lost control of money supply are in tatters.

    He also says the only hope for them is that the FOMC of 2013 will be more dovish than last year's FOMC:


    "Commodity prices are falling and in some instances are falling quite sharply. Clearly that is the case with gold, for the minutes of the FOMC’s last meeting have shaken the hopes of the most violent “Gold Bugs” malevolently, and have shaken our gold position rather materially. We are, however, rather nicely insulated from the real damage being done to the simplistic gold bugs who have owned and who still own gold predicated upon their thesis that the Fed has lost control of the money supply. That thesis is now in tatters... or at least has been very badly torn in the past twenty four hours... following the single sentence from the Fed’s minutes noted at length above.
    …Yesterday’s plunge has indeed left its mark and gold buyers in US dollar terms are going to have to prove the very merit of their case... and soon. Further, they are going to have to do so with margin clerks looking over their shoulders today. That is hardly the time to make one’s best case.

    The game has changed for gold if we are to believe the minutes of the FOMC meeting, and at the moment we’ve no choice but to believe them. The only hope for the gold/US$ bulls is that the newly constituted FOMC shall be more dovish than was the FOMC as constituted last year. That case can be made, but only at the margin. We shall accept the FOMC of ’13 as more dovish than was that of ’12, but only marginally so; not materially so."

    Gartman points out that commodity prices are falling . . . as if gold were a mere commodity.
    He assumes that the Fed is in control. In reality it is not. The markets of the world are in control. The main thing the Fed does is make things worse by delaying the inevitable . . . .
    Gold is in a temporary hiatus.

    I read a 2009 article by Swiss economics professor Peter Bernholz, author of Monetary Regimes and Inflation, in which he said that the US would not experience hyperinflation. I asked him recently if he still felt that way now. He replied:


    Some months ago . . . I came to the conclusion that for several years an annual inflation in the
    range of 17 % could be expected. That is certainly not hyperinflation. Meanwhile, however, because
    of the additional "quantitative easing" by the Fed the situation is looking somewhat worse. But much depends
    in the shorter perspective on general expectations of the markets and the public, not to speak of the share of
    the US budget financed by taking up credit and this directly or indirectly by the Fed.



    At a 17% inflation rate, gold would go up bigtime, as it did in 1979 . . . .
    In a hyperinflation, gold would be pricelesss . . . .
    But in either case, the government would figure out a way to steal the profit from you
    raja
    Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

  • #2
    Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

    Originally posted by raja View Post
    For those of us in the cheap seats, I thought it would be worth continuing this thread . . . .



    Gartman points out that commodity prices are falling . . . as if gold were a mere commodity.
    He assumes that the Fed is in control. In reality it is not. The markets of the world are in control. The main thing the Fed does is make things worse by delaying the inevitable . . . .
    Gold is in a temporary hiatus.

    I read a 2009 article by Swiss economics professor Peter Bernholz, author of Monetary Regimes and Inflation, in which he said that the US would not experience hyperinflation. I asked him recently if he still felt that way now. He replied:


    Some months ago . . . I came to the conclusion that for several years an annual inflation in the
    range of 17 % could be expected. That is certainly not hyperinflation. Meanwhile, however, because
    of the additional "quantitative easing" by the Fed the situation is looking somewhat worse. But much depends
    in the shorter perspective on general expectations of the markets and the public, not to speak of the share of
    the US budget financed by taking up credit and this directly or indirectly by the Fed.



    At a 17% inflation rate, gold would go up bigtime, as it did in 1979 . . . .
    In a hyperinflation, gold would be pricelesss . . . .
    But in either case, the government would figure out a way to steal the profit from you
    Actually the Fed and US Government are the largest market participants and hold the most sway. The Fed remitted 87 billion back to the treasury. Show me a hedge fund that made that kind of money last year!

    I give the chance of a hyperinflationary event in the US less than 2%.

    The government isnt going to "steal" the profit we make from gold. In fact they will most likely LOWER the current collectible tax on gold of 28% down to 20%.

    Don't worry.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

      Raja, I am not sure that you saw my previous comment to you, so I want to reiterate my appreciation. I rhetorically asked, at the end, what Dr. Bernholz would think today, given the perfidy of CB's, and the Fed, specifically. Now, you supply an answer. Voila!
      His response is consistent with my own resolutely stupid view. I love being lucky!
      Well done.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

        Originally posted by ProdigyofZen View Post
        Actually the Fed and US Government are the largest market participants and hold the most sway.
        Sway to do what?
        Look at how they used their sway to create the housing bubble which led to the current Depression.
        And they are not done yet . . . .

        They're already at the Zero Bound. The only thing they can do now is run the printing press.
        The Equation of Exchange will tell you what that will do -- Inflation.
        The more they print, the greater the inflation.
        Right now the new money hasn't leaked out into the economy, but it will eventually.

        I'd genuinely like to hear your take on things . . . since you are predicting a future that I would prefer.

        The government isnt going to "steal" the profit we make from gold. In fact they will most likely LOWER the current collectible tax on gold of 28% down to 20%.
        Don't worry.
        I'd like to not worry.
        But my reading of History, and understanding of human nature, suggest you are wrong.

        So when and under what circumstances would the gov't LOWER taxes, when they are already having to print trillions just to pay their operating expenses?
        raja
        Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

          If the powerful people hold gold, then, there is not going to be heavy taxation.
          And we know some powerful heavy weights are stashing gold.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

            Originally posted by raja View Post
            Sway to do what?
            Look at how they used their sway to create the housing bubble which led to the current Depression.
            And they are not done yet . . . .

            They're already at the Zero Bound. The only thing they can do now is run the printing press.
            The Equation of Exchange will tell you what that will do -- Inflation.
            The more they print, the greater the inflation.
            Right now the new money hasn't leaked out into the economy, but it will eventually.

            I'd genuinely like to hear your take on things . . . since you are predicting a future that I would prefer.



            I'd like to not worry.
            But my reading of History, and understanding of human nature, suggest you are wrong.

            So when and under what circumstances would the gov't LOWER taxes, when they are already having to print trillions just to pay their operating expenses?
            Sway as in they are the most powerful force in the market, the government is the largest player in the market. This is why when they do something like set the interest rate for the economy the "free market" follows suit.

            Raja, how does a government finance expenditure's?

            Raja, how does inflation occur?

            When accepting the new Intl gold standard becomes the condition for entrance into the reformed IMS and once again the monetary unit of the world I don't see how they can tax it at some exorbitant rate.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

              Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
              If the powerful people hold gold, then, there is not going to be heavy taxation.
              And we know some powerful heavy weights are stashing gold.
              I'd like to think that, too.

              But the "powerful heavy weights" will somehow be excluded from taxation . . . .

              They'll be tipped off right before the taxation goes into effect, then sell. Or they will stash it offshore, and sell it there. Or something . . . .

              Isn't that the way it always works with the 1%?
              raja
              Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

                Originally posted by ProdigyofZen View Post
                Sway as in they are the most powerful force in the market, the government is the largest player in the market. This is why when they do something like set the interest rate for the economy the "free market" follows suit.

                Raja, how does a government finance expenditure's?

                Raja, how does inflation occur?

                When accepting the new Intl gold standard becomes the condition for entrance into the reformed IMS and once again the monetary unit of the world I don't see how they can tax it at some exorbitant rate.
                The answer to all three of your questions is: print money!

                And as we know from history, there are limits to that strategy . . . and many people think we are rapidly approaching those limits.

                The raison d'etre of government is control, and what do you think the gov't will do if there is a competing currency that threatens their control? Read economic history to learn about it . . . .
                Just as an example, FDR forced the People to trade in all their gold in 1933 for $$20.67/ounce, when it was actually worth much more. There were 3 gold "confications" in US history.
                The gov't may not call in gold this time . . . but instead could use a windfall profit tax to discourage its use.

                Gold is fine for now, just don't go all in unless you're a real gambler.
                The gold price should continue upward for some time, perhaps dramatically.
                But make sure you sell it and collect the outrageous profits (minus 28% collectibles tax) before the gov't decides that it's time to prohibit or discourage gold ownership.
                raja
                Boycott Big Banks • Vote Out Incumbents

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: More on "Gartner on the Gold Bug Thesis"

                  i don't know how the profit tax will be calculated, but what if one owns phys or gtu, and sell some and buy it back each year? incur the 15% tax rate and adjust your basis up each year. if there is a 90% tax, maybe .... it will only be on your cost basis? maybe that is how the rich skirt the tax, sell near the top and buy back in.

                  Comment

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