Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

RE: In Japan its 1983 all over again

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • RE: In Japan its 1983 all over again

    When the Japanese housing bubble burst in 1990 the economy was left in disarray. Hard to believe that this happened 23 years ago but real estate prices in Japan are now at levels last seen in 1983. In other words, thirty years of virtually no real growth in real estate values. In a system conditioned by inflation this is a perfect example of asset deflation. Many simply assume that real estate appreciation is going to happen one way or another but we are now following a low rate policy similar to what the Bank of Japan did with quantitative easing. 2012 is not a good example to set a baseline for a trend because interest rates were pushed down heavily by the Fed and inventory continues to be held off creating a low level of supply on the market. Yet when we look at what Americans can afford on a monthly basis, it is virtually locked because household incomes have been stagnant for well over a decade. The Japanese asset boom and bust provides many parallels to what we should expect in the US. Many point to 2012 as some sort of divergence but this is more a reflection of aggressive quantitative easing and low inventory more than a sustainable boom because of solid economic and wage growth.

    Japan Prices back to 1983 levels

    Residential property values in Japan are now back to levels last seen in 1983:



    Japan is an important case example because in 1990, Japan had a GDP of $3.1 trillion and the US was at $5.7 trillion. Japan for many years was the second largest economy. But today Japan’s GDP is what it was in 1995. The Bank of Japan bailed out the banking system with bucket loads of troubled assets and forced rates to incredibly low levels. You can get mortgages in Japan in the 2 percent range but once again, refer to the first chart.
    Some people take the next step and talk about zero percent mortgage rates. Why speculate when we can look at Japan for an example:


    “(BBC) Yoshifumi Tachibana, 32, might be one. He recently bought an apartment worth 60 million yen (£478,782; $766,430) in central Tokyo.
    “I was told I’d get the best mortgage rate if paid about 20% up front, so I did,” he says.
    “Low interest rates were definitely one of the reasons for me to decide to buy my first home. I borrowed 47 million yen and I am on a 35-year repayment plan with an interest rate of 0.075%.”
    But despite such attractive rates, real estate agent Hidetaka Miyazaki says he has not seen an increase in the number of buyers and investors in the last 20 years, especially not in sub-urban areas.”


    Essentially what is happening is market manipulation of rates to keep home prices inflated for banks. In Japan, the support to banks has been nearly unlimited since the real estate bubble burst in 1990. The Fed is following a very similar road allowing banks to selectively hold off properties from the market while pushing rates lower to keep prices higher. Since there are zero conditions on bailouts or funding, banks can do what they see fit even in the aftermath of the greatest housing bubble in US history.

    Sales from the bottom

    Here is an interesting take from economist Dean Baker:

    “Both the NYT and USA Today have convinced themselves that house sales are well below their trend level, with the latter telling us that a 5.5 million annual sales rate of existing homes considered healthy. In fact, we are pretty much back to trend levels of sales. In the mid-90s before the bubble began to distort the market, sales averaged about 3.5 million a year. A simple adjustment for the 15 percent population growth over this period would imply an annual sales rate of 4 million existing homes. That is somewhat below the current 4.5 million sales rate.”


    Today existing home sales are 5.04 million in November of 2012. There is massive speculation and much of this is coming from investors, flippers, and foreign money. Low rates create massive market distortions. At least in this sense we are different from Japan but this is going on right now. Will investors continue to be a big part of the market moving forward? Not long-term. Yields are already collapsing in many places like Arizona and Las Vegas and investors will pull back.

    US and mortgage rates

    US home values are now back to prices last seen in 2003. A lost decade has already occurred:



    Keep in mind that in 2003, mortgage rates were in the 6 percent range and now have fallen by over 50 percent thus increasing what Americans can take on to purchase a home. Home prices have not shot up in a similar fashion because households have not seen any real wage increases:



    Someone nailed the prediction on lower mortgage rates here:


    “(Daily Wealth, mid-2011) Every year since I can remember, real estate brokers have warned, “You’ve got to buy now… before mortgage rates go up.
    Every year, the majority of economists and experts predict that “interest rates simply can’t fall any farther.” And then they do.
    I don’t want to make a prediction today. But I do want to point out two facts:
    1) For the last 30 years, the trend in interest rates has been down.
    2) Mortgage rates in Japan today are less than 2%.
    Let’s take a look at each of those facts…
    In the 1980s, nobody could imagine a mortgage rate below 10%. In the 1990s, nobody could imagine a mortgage rate below 7%. In the 2000s, nobody could imagine a mortgage rate below 5%. Yet here we are, in 2011… and mortgage rates have spent the last month in the 4.5% range.”



    Rates today are in the 3 percent range (a drop of 33 percent from the 4.5 range when the article was written). The big take away really is that in 2012, much of the boost in prices came from this added leverage that households could take on. For example, run the numbers for the median US household income of $50,000:


    $150,000 mortgage at 4.5%
    Principal and Interest = $760
    $150,000 mortgage at 3%
    Principal and Interest = $632
    $180,000 mortgage at 3%
    Principal and Interest = $760



    This is the big change here. All else being equal, that drop from 4.5 percent to 3 percent allowed the typical US household to purchase $30,000 more of a home without any real income growth. This is all well and good but now, unless real incomes go up, the Fed has to continue to push rates lower or face a stagnant market. Japan provides a really good example that even with mortgage rates at zero percent, longer-term unless you see real economic activity and productivity pick-up with real wage growth housing values will end up becoming stuck.

    While Japan was slower to realize that they had an asset bubble and react, the US acted aggressively and subsequently, our government debt is soaring much faster than Japan:



    We are already hearing rumblings from within the Fed that bond buying is likely to slow down this year:


    “WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — There was a general sense among Federal Reserve officials that their bond-buying program would last, at most, until the end of the year, according to the minutes from their meeting last month that were released on Thursday.
    “Several” Fed officials thought that the central bank would be able to slow or stop the purchases well before December 2013.”


    Nationwide we have already seen a lost decade in home prices. In 2012 home prices did go up. Yet I see this more as a reflection of low rates and constrained supply instead of it being a healthy market. Last year, nearly 30 percent of all home sales went to investors so you have new home buyers and families competing with these groups to bid home prices higher. Japan’s real estate values are back to levels last seen 30 years ago. It should be obvious to people that with real household incomes stagnant, that most of this growth is occurring because of other forces pushing prices up in the short-term.

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/j...ortgage-rates/

  • #2
    Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

    If the population in Japan is not growing (rather diminishing), and the economy is not growing either; why should home prices grow?
    Me thinks there is not a problem; why search for a solution?
    Moreover: what´s wrong with 0 economic growth in a developed country?
    Are people unhappy?
    In a limited resources planet only stupids (or economists) can promote unlimited economic growth.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

      Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
      If the population in Japan is not growing (rather diminishing), and the economy is not growing either; why should home prices grow?
      One of the lines of thought regarding Japan's negative population growth is that it is partly caused by the Japanese government's decision to prop-up failed banks by attempting to keep housing prices high. Keeping housing prices high retards household/family formation and is part of a feedback loop that causes an economy to stagnate or contract.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

        What is the vertical axis in that graph? Is it adjusted for the purchasing power of the yen?

        Although no one believes me, I have lived in Japan for 24 years, not as an expat, but as someone who got a job here, had to get his own apartment, does not have a live in maid, etc. The stories that expats tell are just nonsense and have nothing whatsoever to do with how people in Tokyo actually live. No one pays 200 dollars a pound for Kobe beef unless they are so rich they have nothing else do to all day. I live a half hour by train from downtown Tokyo. See this.

        http://www.lagunabeachbikini.com/ind...ices-in-japan/

        Yes, prices of condos are way down. I am actually thinking of buying one since I can get one for 2 years annual household income.

        One big difference here versus the US is that during the bubble they did not start building 4,000 sq ft macmansions. The price tripled, then the price went back down. The size of the apartments and houses stayed the same.

        Why should Japans population continue to grow? It was less than one million 2000 years ago. It was 30 million a century ago. What is its proper level? I dont think that the decrease was from keeping high property values, because the property values are very low now... much much lower than the cost in the US versus income.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

          Originally posted by Southernguy View Post
          If the population in Japan is not growing (rather diminishing), and the economy is not growing either; why should home prices grow?
          Me thinks there is not a problem; why search for a solution?
          Moreover: what´s wrong with 0 economic growth in a developed country?
          Are people unhappy?
          In a limited resources planet only stupids (or economists) can promote unlimited economic growth.

          I responded exactly the same way a year ago when a friend sent me a similar article. Are the Japanese really hurting that badly? Why should prices increase if the population is not? But then we've been so conditioned to the "growth is the only way" economic model. The USA would be in the same boat if not for immigration. And people wonder why the borders remain so porous. Its not an accident. They are trying to maintain that high and feed our "growth" crack addiction.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

            This repeated harping on "a lost decade already in housing" is simply ridiculuous.

            We had a bubble, and now prices have reverted to closer to the mean so that qualifies as a "lost decade"? Yes, we have had a non-buble economy for the past 6 years

            All these folks who appear to recognize and disapprove of the bubble in retrospect and then complain that things aren't "growing like before" or are "stagnant" are just not consistent in their analysis.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

              Originally posted by mooncliff View Post
              What is the vertical axis in that graph? Is it adjusted for the purchasing power of the yen?

              Although no one believes me, I have lived in Japan for 24 years, not as an expat, but as someone who got a job here, had to get his own apartment, does not have a live in maid, etc. The stories that expats tell are just nonsense and have nothing whatsoever to do with how people in Tokyo actually live. No one pays 200 dollars a pound for Kobe beef unless they are so rich they have nothing else do to all day. I live a half hour by train from downtown Tokyo. See this.

              http://www.lagunabeachbikini.com/ind...ices-in-japan/

              Yes, prices of condos are way down. I am actually thinking of buying one since I can get one for 2 years annual household income.

              One big difference here versus the US is that during the bubble they did not start building 4,000 sq ft macmansions. The price tripled, then the price went back down. The size of the apartments and houses stayed the same.

              Why should Japans population continue to grow? It was less than one million 2000 years ago. It was 30 million a century ago. What is its proper level? I dont think that the decrease was from keeping high property values, because the property values are very low now... much much lower than the cost in the US versus income.
              I've visited Japan a dozen times on business since the early 1980s, before, during, and after the property bubble. My impression is that differences in the public policy response to collapsing property bubbles in the U.S. since 2009 and Japan since 2003 is a purely political matter.

              In the U.S. where the real estate lobby heavily influences tax, regulatory, and banking and lending policy we get policies that get home prices inflation rising again.


              Without the political mandates of the FIRE sector in Japan as in the U.S., housing prices have adjusted to a market level. As a goods producing, export-based economy it was important to allow property prices and thus housing costs to decline to keep Japanese manufacturing labor globally competitive. Japan's national health care system serves a similar function by putting less demand on personal incomes to pay health insurance and medical expenses.

              Visitors to Japan are mystified that the Japanese seem to live quite well when the economy is supposedly stagnant and mired in deflation. Wage earners in Japan do not have to contend with a double whammy of large health insurance and medical bills and high mortgages and rents to pay.



              Without FIRE-friendly policy to reflate home prices, wages keep up with housing costs in post property bubble Japan.




              With FIRE-friendly policy to reflate home prices such as Fed purchases of MBS, wages don't keep up with housing price inflation in post property bubble America.

              Which one is better?

              Comment


              • #8
                Germany and Japan identical twins?

                Originally posted by EJ View Post
                Without the political mandates of the FIRE sector in Japan as in the U.S., housing prices have adjusted to a market level. As a goods producing, export-based economy it was important to allow property prices and thus housing costs to decline to keep Japanese manufacturing labor globally competitive. Japan's national health care system serves a similar function by putting less demand on personal incomes to pay health insurance and medical expenses.
                I saw an article, I think in the Economist, saying the same thing about Germany. The government went to great lengths to keep basic living costs low for the working class (food, housing, medical care, transport). For that reason, Germany could remain an export power house, even with China around .

                The one thing I don't get in the German case is the transport cost. The last time I travelled there, the train ticket was quite expensive. My german friend told me that many of his (well paid) colleagues drive to work because it is cheaper than public transport, even with German fuel taxes. Maybe his area is anomalous, and that was 6 years ago.

                If you just walk into a store and buy food or something else, Germany is one of the cheapest countries in europe. Switzerland, for example, has very high food prices.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

                  EJ in a Hudson frame of mind . . .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Germany and Japan identical twins?

                    Originally posted by Polish_Silver View Post
                    I saw an article, I think in the Economist, saying the same thing about Germany. The government went to great lengths to keep basic living costs low for the working class (food, housing, medical care, transport). For that reason, Germany could remain an export power house, even with China around .

                    The one thing I don't get in the German case is the transport cost. The last time I travelled there, the train ticket was quite expensive. My german friend told me that many of his (well paid) colleagues drive to work because it is cheaper than public transport, even with German fuel taxes. Maybe his area is anomalous, and that was 6 years ago.

                    If you just walk into a store and buy food or something else, Germany is one of the cheapest countries in europe. Switzerland, for example, has very high food prices

                    Safe food is not cheap in China and more expensive than most countries except for maybe Japan.

                    With uncontrolled use of growth hormones, antibiotics and all sorts of chemicals you never know they will use, 90% of the food in large supermarkets is dangerous, even if they have the organic label on it - mostly fakes. At the extreme end, there are the fakes sold in local stores - fake liquor, fake eggs made of plastic, etc - much more dangerous because of the illegal nature of the production.

                    Even the tap water is toxic in many places as rivers are polluted and water is hardly filtered - just chlorinated.
                    Last edited by touchring; January 07, 2013, 08:21 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Germany and Japan identical twins?

                      With uncontrolled use of growth hormones, antibiotics and all sorts of chemicals you never know (what) they will use
                      China's not alone in this regard. Use of growth hormones and antibiotics is rampant in American food production. Remember heavy metals being approved for spreading on crop fields. Don't know much about China's food industry. Care a lot about US practices.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: In Japan its 1983 all over again

                        "Wage earners in Japan do not have to contend with a double whammy of large health insurance and medical bills and high mortgages and rents to pay."

                        The graph of Consumer Price Index Housing for Japan shows flat from 1995 to the present, but actually all the apartment rents in my area half an hour from downtown are down 30%, and this seems to be across Tokyo. One of my friends lives in central Tokyo, and he argued the rent down by 25%.
                        List condo prices dropped about 30% after the Lehman Shock.
                        There seems to have been some shock about a year ago, and list condo prices dropped another 30%. People stand in front of the real estate offices staring. Even new condo list prices can be cut by up to half if you get the timing right.

                        I think another HUGE difference is that in Tokyo, and in most of urbanized Japan, you do not need a car, or you can get by with one, not one for every person who has to go to work. We used to need four cars in our house. It was a huge drain. One way to look at this is because I dont need a car and because my train pass to downtown is paid for by my employer, I save enough to pay for my apartment, so in effect, my apartment is free.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          cars, trains, and plains

                          Originally posted by mooncliff View Post


                          I think another HUGE difference is that in Tokyo, and in most of urbanized Japan, you do not need a car, or you can get by with one, not one for every person who has to go to work. We used to need four cars in our house. It was a huge drain. One way to look at this is because I dont need a car and because my train pass to downtown is paid for by my employer, I save enough to pay for my apartment, so in effect, my apartment is free.
                          I think people in high density regions of the US do not need cars either: Manhattan, Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco. But Japan is more urbanized than the US. 100M people on a place the size of California.

                          I think one effect of peak oil will be to concentrate people near thier work or non-automotive transportation, thereby making public transit more cost effective.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X