Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

[lektrode]

POLL: today, over at: http://finance.yahoo.com/

The U.S. government is looking to sell the rest of its stake in General Motors over the next 15 months, likely at a significant loss. Was the bailout worth it?

Yes, it saved GM, the auto industry and jobs (17144)

32%

No, it cost taxpayers billions (24349)

46%

We've turned into a bailout nation (11889)

22%

would interpret this as a Nay

and i'm a chevy/gm kinda guy.
my #1 issue: kash fer klunkahs has jacked up the price of decent used vehicles!
again - this was another aspect of the great bailout that supposedly helped the working class, RIGHT?
uh huh... now all we need is a little more help with the costs of higher education

[aaron]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

what a coincidence! I just voted 5 seconds ago.

I voted worth it. It saved manufacturing and jobs.
If bank bailouts are worth trillions, the "real economy" is worth a few billion. It is completely unfair, of course, but it is what it is. It really was one of the few bailouts that reached the people.

[lektrode]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

what a coincidence! I just voted 5 seconds ago.

I voted worth it. It saved manufacturing and jobs.
If bank bailouts are worth trillions, the "real economy" is worth a few billion. It is completely unfair, of course, but it is what it is. It really was one of the few bailouts that reached the people.

well thats one way of looking at it and cant say i disagree - altho one question is:
WHAT PEOPLE did it reach? (sides the UAW, and some .gov wonks - aka a big voting block of you know who) - again - my main objection was the kash fer clunkers program - other than its cost - was that it was such a waste of resources - took tens of thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cars out of the market and thereby screwed those of us who depend upon reasonably priced used cars - in my case, mostly due to not wanting to saddle up a 5-7year yoke of debt - my policy has been to not spend more than i can make in a week to maybe a month max, for a car - that way if it croaks, gets smashed or stolen one is only out a week/months worth of income

and i'm beginning to wonder at this point that i will EVER AGAIN be able to afford to buy another car - at least not the way i have been for the past 25+ years - never mind a 'new' one.

[aaron]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

Maybe Obama is just cutting our losses:

General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoodhill/2012/08/15/general-motors-is-headed-for-bankruptcy-again/

[shiny!]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

Maybe Obama is just cutting our losses:

General Motors Is Headed For Bankruptcy -- Again

http://www.forbes.com/sites/louiswoo...kruptcy-again/

Let them die. Dinosaurs still building giant, inefficient cars designed for a world with abundant oil. Let the small, innovative startups have a chance to bring new and different ideas to market. They can't do that when gov't keeps propping up the big auto makers.

[shiny!]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

well thats one way of looking at it and cant say i disagree - altho one question is:
WHAT PEOPLE did it reach? (sides the UAW, and some .gov wonks - aka a big voting block of you know who) - again - my main objection was the kash fer clunkers program - other than its cost - was that it was such a waste of resources - took tens of thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cars out of the market and thereby screwed those of us who depend upon reasonably priced used cars - in my case, mostly due to not wanting to saddle up a 5-7year yoke of debt - my policy has been to not spend more than i can make in a week to maybe a month max, for a car - that way if it croaks, gets smashed or stolen one is only out a week/months worth of income

and i'm beginning to wonder at this point that i will EVER AGAIN be able to afford to buy another car - at least not the way i have been for the past 25+ years - never mind a 'new' one.

No kidding. All those affordable working cars taken out of service. How many years will these new cars with their marginally better MPG have to be driven to make up for the oil that was spent to make them? With the higher insurance, registration fees and service required to maintain the warranty, my paid-for 2012 "fuel efficient" Hyundai Accent costs me more per month than my '86 Crown Vic, PLUS the $19000 outlay to buy the blasted thing. Buying it was a dumb move on my part.

[aaron]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

I think I would shave years off my life driving the crown vic. The repairs and problems would drive me nuts! You did not make a mistake, in my opinion.

I dislike the car I recently purchased. It is a fancy nameplate, but I got it used and saved some a lot. However, it is expensive as hell to drive and I really regret it. mentally, I know that even at 5 dollars a gallon, I am still saving money by not getting a newer model. Psychologically, it pains me daily to see that 18 miles/gallon on the dashboard, without any real muscle under the hood. And it takes premium fuel!

I am easily manipulated. Please do not let me buy xpat's tulips.

[shiny!]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

I think I would shave years off my life driving the crown vic. The repairs and problems would drive me nuts! You did not make a mistake, in my opinion.

I dislike the car I recently purchased. It is a fancy nameplate, but I got it used and saved some a lot. However, it is expensive as hell to drive and I really regret it. mentally, I know that even at 5 dollars a gallon, I am still saving money by not getting a newer model. Psychologically, it pains me daily to see that 18 miles/gallon on the dashboard, without any real muscle under the hood. And it takes premium fuel!

I am easily manipulated. Please do not let me buy xpat's tulips.

Yeah, the repairs on the old CV got to be too much, but it was SO FUN to drive! It was a magnificent bucket of rust. It had 100,000 miles when someone gave it to me for free. I put another 113,000 miles on it. They are extremely well-built cars; that's why law enforcement uses them. It got 20 mpg. Insurance and registration together cost $35/month (the Accent costs $100). When it became too unreliable I gave it to my neighbor who didn't have a car, and got a '95 Grand Marquis. What a piece of junk.

My husband kept those cheap old cars in repair. After he died I needed something more reliable so I got the Accent. It's a good car but has cost an arm and a leg. I just don't feel as safe in it if I get clobbered by a big SUV, which almost happened a few weeks ago. It can't hold all my pets and stuff if I ever need to bug out. The whole car could practically fit in the Crown Vic's trunk.

[Polish_Silver]

Your car is your philosophy of life

. . . that it was such a waste of resources - took tens of thousands of otherwise perfectly serviceable cars out of the market and thereby screwed those of us who depend upon reasonably priced used cars - in my case, mostly due to not wanting to saddle up a 5-7year yoke of debt - my policy has been to not spend more than i can make in a week to maybe a month max, for a car -

I'm really with you on that one, 'trode! My second girl friend was a Michigan protestant. Her idea was, always keep a minimum wage life style, because you can always get a minimum wage job. There is something really profound in that!

[Polish_Silver]

Sub compacts: safer than you think!

I just don't feel as safe in it if I get clobbered by a big SUV, which almost happened a few weeks ago.

When I worked in Pennsylvania the engineering meetings always started with a safety film. The best one featured a 1960's huge car having a collision with a late model sub-compact, both driven by crash test dummies. Many of the engineers, including myself, were thinking the big car driver would come off the best.

The small car driver got some bruises from the air bags, but was otherwise unharmed. Don't fret about the big car driver. He felt no pain. He was killed instantly as the hood of the small car went through his chest. The front of his car disintegrated on impact.

Other things being equal, a bigger car is safer. But "other things" are not equal between new and older cars. The older car is more massive, but the steel is lower quality and more brittle. There are fewer bolts holding things together. The older cars had simpler restraint systems (lab belts vs shoulder harness vs airbag). Newer cars have more structural integrity around the passenger compartment, because they are designed for much more stringent collision standards.

Fatalities per passenger mile have been declining for 70+ years, and are still going down!

Having said that, SUV's are a public safety menace. Relative to small cars, they do much more damage to pedestrians and other autos. There ought to be a "danger to others" tax put on them! (I actually own an SUV myself, though I was "forced into it" by wifely nagging)

[GRG55]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

what a coincidence! I just voted 5 seconds ago.

I voted worth it. It saved manufacturing and jobs.
If bank bailouts are worth trillions, the "real economy" is worth a few billion. It is completely unfair, of course, but it is what it is. It really was one of the few bailouts that reached the people.

All the auto bailouts did was maintain excess auto manufacturing capacity in a world flooded with auto manufacturing capacity. GM and Chrysler should have died and that capacity removed because they were among the least efficient producers. When the worst performers get subsidized it means the best performers are put at a disadvantage. The Brits tried the same game when their industry became uncompetitive in the late 1960s...first they subsidized it, then they nationalized it (British Leyland) but even that couldn't save it. The French are on their way to learning the same lesson with their current troubles.

[LorenS]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

I worked at GM as a contractor in the 90's. I say not worth it.

Bankruptcy does not eliminate jobs, it eliminates debt and gives the new owners a chance to make a new start, hopefully with new management.

Unless you get the management out you're wasting time and money. New owners would help if the owners had a clue.

[LorenS]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

what a coincidence! I just voted 5 seconds ago.

I voted worth it. It saved manufacturing and jobs.
If bank bailouts are worth trillions, the "real economy" is worth a few billion. It is completely unfair, of course, but it is what it is. It really was one of the few bailouts that reached the people.

So if the bank bailouts represented graft and corruption on a massive scale where would that place the GM bailout?

[c1ue]

Re: Survey Sez: GuvMotors, yay or nay?

So if the bank bailouts represented graft and corruption on a massive scale where would that place the GM bailout?

My question is: if GM didn't have a gigantic bank (Now Ally), and Chrysler wasn't bought out by banksters, would the bailout have happened?

[shiny!]

Re: Sub compacts: safer than you think!

When I worked in Pennsylvania the engineering meetings always started with a safety film. The best one featured a 1960's huge car having a collision with a late model sub-compact, both driven by crash test dummies. Many of the engineers, including myself, were thinking the big car driver would come off the best.

The small car driver got some bruises from the air bags, but was otherwise unharmed. Don't fret about the big car driver. He felt no pain. He was killed instantly as the hood of the small car went through his chest. The front of his car disintegrated on impact.

Other things being equal, a bigger car is safer. But "other things" are not equal between new and older cars. The older car is more massive, but the steel is lower quality and more brittle. There are fewer bolts holding things together. The older cars had simpler restraint systems (lab belts vs shoulder harness vs airbag). Newer cars have more structural integrity around the passenger compartment, because they are designed for much more stringent collision standards.

Fatalities per passenger mile have been declining for 70+ years, and are still going down!

Having said that, SUV's are a public safety menace. Relative to small cars, they do much more damage to pedestrians and other autos. There ought to be a "danger to others" tax put on them! (I actually own an SUV myself, though I was "forced into it" by wifely nagging)

Thanks for this info; it makes me feel better. The 2012's use an improved steel alloy that's supposedly stronger than what they used to use. That's why I sprung for a new 2012 model instead of a cheaper used one. I guess I'll keep it. Maybe someday gas will go way up and the 35-mpg will come in handy.

As long as the gov't regulates cars it should be law that little cars should have LOUD horns. Not the stupid meep-meep POS horn that the POS SUV driver didn't hear as he pushed me out of my lane into oncoming traffic.