Gun Control Anyone?

[shiny!]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

If you did away with the gun free zones at schools at made it public that teachers and admins with CCW permits would be allowed to have guns at schools it would seriously deter the crazies. Because now they know that someone at the school may be armed. These guys are cowards. Thats why they pick places with no guns and give up or kill themselves when the cops show up. My wife works at a school. Her office is at the front entrance. If some nut job comes in the front door she doesn't have a chance. If she was allowed to carry a CCW at least she might be able to get off a few rounds and slow the guy down. I admit that having teachers carry is problematic. You don't want the kids to have access to a gun in a classroom so it would have to be locked up,possibly in a biometric case. When caught by surprise the odds of a teacher getting to a gun in time are not good if it's locked up and a guy busts into a class room. Having one off duty cop doing extra duty at a school is not that big of an expense in the grand scheme of things and would also make a big difference.

Teaching is extremely stressful. I don't ever want to see a highly stressed teacher going postal on his or her students. I'd be in favor of having school staff with CCW permits carry in schools with three provisions:

#1. They first undergo a psychological evaluation to determine if they are stable.

#2. They undergo training and pass a competency test. Cops and soldiers have to undergo training. So should teachers and school staff carrying weapons around children. I've done simulator training and was surprised by how difficult it is to hit the target when under stress.

#3. They should maintain their skills with frequent, regular practice at the shooting range.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Agreed, except the part about an abyss of no return.

No tyranny lasts forever - they have black swans too, and not just an underground.

I would agree.......Chile is a pretty good example....although Argentina next door seems to be a bit closer to forever.

What troubles me about the mass media shaping of the gun control debate are these 2 things:

1.) Mass media completely neglecting acknowledgement of the 2nd amendment's codified role in deterring tyranny. It's a bit spooky.

2.)Mass media emphasis on the evils of special interest influence and control when it comes to the gun lobby, by putting it in an box and failing to acknowledge the other 99.99% of the problem with special interest influence and control polluting the political process. I'm genuinely shocked mass media can point the finger at the gun lobby, but conveniently ignore the rest of it.

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I would agree.......Chile is a pretty good example....although Argentina next door seems to be a bit closer to forever.

What troubles me about the mass media shaping of the gun control debate are these 2 things:

1.) Mass media completely neglecting acknowledgement of the 2nd amendment's codified role in deterring tyranny. It's a bit spooky.

In snark mode, that's an easy answer - it's different this time. ;-)

2.)Mass media emphasis on the evils of special interest influence and control when it comes to the gun lobby, by putting it in an box and failing to acknowledge the other 99.99% of the problem with special interest influence and control polluting the political process. I'm genuinely shocked mass media can point the finger at the gun lobby, but conveniently ignore the rest of it.

I wish I could say something really wise about the 'special' limitations of much of mass media, but vested and under-educated interests are the only things that have ever made sense to me. And while I can be pretty cynical at times, sometimes I've found it's not enough. :-(

And the same applies to the other side in my opinion, as in I've seen the NRA take rather extreme positions sometimes.

Handy to know:

The question of whether the Second Amendment only allows firearms ownership in the context of a militia was settled by the Supreme Court in District of Columbia v. Heller. The court held that a private right to own firearms exists independent of any militia. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distric...mbia_v._Heller for a description of the case.

[leegs]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

...
1.) Mass media completely neglecting acknowledgement of the 2nd amendment's codified role in deterring tyranny. It's a bit spooky.
...

How is this role codified in the 2nd amendment itself, vs being implied ?

[vt]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

If you study the history of the right of citizens to bear arms, you would see how it is codified over time to include deterring tyranny:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...s_Constitution

[Ghent12]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Teaching is extremely stressful. I don't ever want to see a highly stressed teacher going postal on his or her students. I'd be in favor of having school staff with CCW permits carry in schools with three provisions:

#1. They first undergo a psychological evaluation to determine if they are stable.

#2. They undergo training and pass a competency test. Cops and soldiers have to undergo training. So should teachers and school staff carrying weapons around children. I've done simulator training and was surprised by how difficult it is to hit the target when under stress.

#3. They should maintain their skills with frequent, regular practice at the shooting range.

These are necessary at a minimum, although I would never feel very comfortable with allowing public school teachers that I have been unable to meet/screen to be armed. They are not protectors, they are educators/babysitters, and only sometimes effective in that combined role. I wouldn't trust them to be armed for the same reason I wouldn't trust a post office worker or a DMV worker to be armed; they aren't the kind of people to bear that kind of burden.

[Ghent12]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

How is this role codified in the 2nd amendment itself, vs being implied ?

Read the text of it:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The necessity of providing for a free state requires that people be allowed to keep and bear arms. The 2nd Amendment has little to do with self-defense and absolutely nothing to do with hunting. It literally means that the citizens do not surrender military authority solely to the government--the citizens retain the right to be armed and maintain a well regulated militia. Limits on armament, in all its forms, is Unconstitutional, though nobody enforces that interpretation.

[vt]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

What role does administering psychotropic drugs to our children play?

http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/th...hotropic-drug/

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

These are necessary at a minimum, although I would never feel very comfortable with allowing public school teachers that I have been unable to meet/screen to be armed. They are not protectors, they are educators/babysitters, and only sometimes effective in that combined role. I wouldn't trust them to be armed for the same reason I wouldn't trust a post office worker or a DMV worker to be armed; they aren't the kind of people to bear that kind of burden.

Your preferred option is then on or off duty police or perhaps ex-military?

Perhaps off the wall, but what about if the teacher or administrator was both self selected and also a graduate of a police academy or similar?

[Ghent12]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Your preferred option is then on or off duty police or perhaps ex-military?

Perhaps off the wall, but what about if the teacher or administrator was both self selected and also a graduate of a police academy or similar?

That's a gray area. I would prefer active police nearby the school, though I hardly trust cops either. Honestly my first preference would be that parents actually be parents--that would have stopped every school shooting by a student. But since I can't control that, and armed security is a viable option if practiced right, then perhaps we could have security personnel or cops on staff at schools. Mixing too many in with guns, such as various teachers who actually would be otherwise good candidates for security, might not be ideal for a number of reasons but I suppose that should be up for the schools to decide.

Also, the design of schools themselves could change to make them less prison-like. Make them open with many exits or even without walls at all. That, of course, would require that schools function as more than just daycare centers assigning homework--it would require that children want to attend. That might be a bridge too far, but a person can dream...

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Thanks Ghent12 - it's a sticky mess and fraught with potential poor outcomes, no matter what.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

How is this role codified in the 2nd amendment itself, vs being implied ?

Supported as recently as McDonald v Chicago 2010:

"It is clear that the Framers . . . counted the right to keep and bear arms among those fundamental rights necessary to our system of ordered liberty."

Interpreted as intertwined with the 14th Amendment.

That's a statement for firearms = freedom.....isn't it simply unstated that if guns = freedom then no guns = no freedom/tyranny?

Lincoln must have interpreted the Framers similarly:

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing Government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."

One of the Framer's stated:

"What country before ever existed a century and half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Even JFK, before he became President was quoted with:

Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."

I don't see the right of firearms ownership and the tyranny it helps to deter as implied.....I view it as a natural right as well as a natural responsibility/duty of being a citizen.

[unlucky]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Read the text of it:
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

The necessity of providing for a free state requires that people be allowed to keep and bear arms. The 2nd Amendment has little to do with self-defense and absolutely nothing to do with hunting. It literally means that the citizens do not surrender military authority solely to the government--the citizens retain the right to be armed and maintain a well regulated militia. Limits on armament, in all its forms, is Unconstitutional, though nobody enforces that interpretation.

I agree with your interpretation, although it has to be noted that when the US constitution was written, the gap between government weapons technology and the technology accessible to private citizens was not as large as it is today. Governments had access to muskets and cannons, while citizens for the most part had access to muskets only. Weapons tech has advanced a lot since those days, and it's clear that most Americans believe their government should be equipped with the latest and greatest weapons technology. The gap between government and citizens is now enormous, to the point where the govt has the power to exterminate nearly all citizens within a few hours or less with no possibility of resistance. Access to semi-automatic or assault rifles does not protect American citizens from this danger, and few would argue that private citizens should have access to the kind of weapons that could pose a resistance threat. (Think Iran and North Korea).

IMHO What protects US citizens from tyranny is the division of power between different branches of the US government. At present there isn't any single branch of the govt that has the legal power to command US armed forces to attack or suppress the citizenry in any large scale sort of way. In practice of course what matters is not legal authority, but loyalty. The Roman republic willingly fell to tyranny because the military became too powerful and the people exalted military virtue and glory. If a similar fate awaits the US, assault rifles in the hands of populace will not protect democracy - in fact the assault rifle owners will be leading the military parade.

[vt]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

http://pjmedia.com/blog/gun-control-...inglepage=true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxRlpRcorEU

[don]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

file under: you can't make this up . . .

By ROBBIE BROWN

CARNESVILLE, Ga. — Keith Ratliff loved guns. He built his own rifles. He kept bullets in his car’s cup holder. And on the rear window he slapped a sticker of the Starbucks Coffee mermaid firing two pistols.

“I ♥ Guns and Coffee,” it read.

Mr. Ratliff’s passion for firearms made him something of a celebrity on the Internet, where he helped make scores of videos about high-powered and exotic guns and explosives. His YouTube channel, called FPSRussia, became the site’s ninth largest, with nearly 3.5 million subscribers and more than 500 million views.

But last week, the authorities said, Mr. Ratliff, 32, ended up on the wrong end of a gun. The police in northeast Georgia found him dead at his office on Jan. 3, shot once in the head. He was surrounded by several guns, but not the one that killed him. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation is treating it as a homicide.

“We are interviewing people of interest, but we have not named a suspect,” said the Franklin County sheriff, Stevie Thomas. “We are not ruling out any options.”

The news, coming amid a national debate about gun control, rippled across the blogs and social networking sites where his videos were popular. Tributes on Facebook and Twitter came from fans stunned that such a well-armed expert had not been able to defend himself.

“For him not to pull out that gun and try to defend himself, he had to feel comfortable around somebody,” his wife, Amanda, told a television channel in Lexington, Ky., where he used to live. "Either that or he was ambushed."

Mr. Ratliff’s videos, which starred a friend, Kyle Myers, are popular for their homegrown brand of zaniness — three minutes of Mr. Myers’s casual banter as he rakes targets or blows things up with extreme displays of firepower. Most are made outdoors, where Mr. Myers fires at targets like hay bales or photographs of Justin Bieber, while explaining the merits of various weapons. The videos always end the same way: with a boom.

“We couldn’t make a video about such a high-powered rifle without blowing up a truck,” Mr. Myers says in one video before opening fire on an empty pickup truck. “So let’s get a nice, big explosion and maybe a little shrapnel.”

F.P.S. is slang among video game players for “first-person shooter.” “Russia” refers to the thick accent used by Mr. Myers’s online persona.

Mr. Ratliff recently moved from Kentucky to Carnesville, a city of 540 people that is 80 miles from Atlanta. He opened a business that made and repaired firearms, and was licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the authorities said.

He was last seen alive at 7 p.m. on Jan. 2, the police said. The next night, the police found him dead inside the business, FPS Industries.

Neighbors in this small community said Mr. Ratliff kept to himself. His wife and 2-year-old son lived in Kentucky. Until last week, Sheriff Thomas said he was called to the property only once, after neighbors heard gunfire.

“As many of you already know I lost a close friend this week,” Mr. Myers wrote to his 1.1 million Facebook followers. “I ask only that you show respect to the situation for the family’s sake.”

Dan Barry contributed reporting from New York.