Gun Control Anyone?

[jk]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I submit that his actual acts were truly insane, hugely anti-social - and quite psychotic, by definition.

I also disagree with reality including it being ok to do mass murder. That reality is just plain insane at the very least.

1. i disagree that what is anti-social is psychotic, but we're just arguing about definitions.
2. war, e.g., involves socially sanctioned mass murder. so at least in that sense, mass murder is at least sometimes "ok." among the norwegian guy's self-selected social circle, my guess is that his actions were "ok." for me and you, obviously not ok.
3. reality, for me, doesn't label things "ok" or "not ok." it is what is, like it or not.

[LorenS]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vPimtcK3-A

smear jello on the floor and set the couch on fire (or turn of the radio)

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

1. i disagree that what is anti-social is psychotic, but we're just arguing about definitions.
2. war, e.g., involves socially sanctioned mass murder. so at least in that sense, mass murder is at least sometimes "ok." among the norwegian guy's self-selected social circle, my guess is that his actions were "ok." for me and you, obviously not ok.
3. reality, for me, doesn't label things "ok" or "not ok." it is what is, like it or not.

No interest in going into semantics and similar.

Bottom line, Lanza and McVeigh and all the rest are insane at the very least.

[c1ue]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I think jk's point is that while McVeigh's and Lanza's actions are insane by our standards, they are not necessarily insane from theirs.

That these people were insane by our standards is implicit.

What is equally implicit is that insanity is a matter of definition. McVeigh's truck bombing - were he a radicalized Muslim, would be considered a sane and moral act by other radical Muslims. Lanza in turn would be considered sane had his targets been enemy child soldiers rather than children in his own hometown - for example as exist in some African militias.

[jk]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

No interest in going into semantics and similar.

Bottom line, Lanza and McVeigh and all the rest are insane at the very least.

we can define them as "insane" if we wish, but applying that label doesn't give us much insight into who they were or what led to their actions. for most people [not necessarily you, bart, but in general], calling the perpetrators of such actions "insane" is the end of the discussion. but it is only by looking into these people more deeply that we can hope to see who ELSE might commit such acts in the future, and then dissuade, discourage or re-direct such individuals. to do so, it is necessary to understand the many varieties of cruelty, sadism, psychopathy, rage, de-humanization and violent behavior. i've never undertaken such a study myself: whenever i've contemplated doing so [and i have], i feel too much revulsion, an unwillingness to empathize with such feelings, which i think would be required for real understanding.

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I think jk's point is that while McVeigh's and Lanza's actions are insane by our standards, they are not necessarily insane from theirs.

That these people were insane by our standards is implicit.

What is equally implicit is that insanity is a matter of definition. McVeigh's truck bombing - were he a radicalized Muslim, would be considered a sane and moral act by other radical Muslims. Lanza in turn would be considered sane had his targets been enemy child soldiers rather than children in his own hometown - for example as exist in some African militias.

Yep, understood and I wasn't trying at all to impugn jk's comments.

I think most of it is that I'm just really tired of the moral and ethical relativism stuff. Relativism can be useful up to a point, especially for those who are stuck or single minded or similar.

Murder is just plain insane, whether the insanity is momentary or virtually permanent like the Lanza kid has apparently been for years. It being "ok" by radical Muslims (or whomever) still doesn't make it anything but insane too.

Declared war is something quite different, and it's not directly comparable to mass murder of kids at school or adults & kids in a movie theater, etc.... and depending on the war, it can easily be called insane too (Vietnam comes to mind).

[reggie]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Is anyone here familiar with the Church Senate Committee of the 1970's, and their findings?

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

we can define them as "insane" if we wish, but applying that label doesn't give us much insight into who they were or what led to their actions. for most people [not necessarily you, bart, but in general], calling the perpetrators of such actions "insane" is the end of the discussion. but it is only by looking into these people more deeply that we can hope to see who ELSE might commit such acts in the future, and then dissuade, discourage or re-direct such individuals. to do so, it is necessary to understand the many varieties of cruelty, sadism, psychopathy, rage, de-humanization and violent behavior. i've never undertaken such a study myself: whenever i've contemplated doing so [and i have], i feel too much revulsion, an unwillingness to empathize with such feelings, which i think would be required for real understanding.

True on just labeling it and lack of insight, etc... but literally by definition 'insane' is not understandable by 'normal' or 'sane' people.

People like Dr. Hare (a psychiatrist) and many others have actually studied the whole area and in depth and there are in reality many ways to detect them. It also isn't exactly rocket science to look (or have looked) at Lanza and see more than a little probability that he could go off the deep end and commit heinous acts.

Long stories, but I have spent more than a little time in my life being exposed to borderline folk (and not the *special* folk here on iTulip ;-) and real honest-to-goodness insane and psychopathic people too. And it's very disturbing to say the least, and far from easy to confront. Lanza's mother certainly should have done more than she did to keep guns away from him, but it's also not hard to understand how she missed the amount of 'evil' in her son... she was his mother for goodness sake, etc.

My main point here is that 'evil' or 'insanity' or 'psychopathy' IS very hard to deal with or be even vaguely educated about... and bringing it back more to the investing area, I submit that the lack of understanding of 'evil' or 'insanity' or 'psychopathy' is the primary reason that so many consistently miss things like the housing bubble, financial crises, oncoming war, etc.
Most have blinders when trying to see the 2% or 5% or whatever percentage of folk on the planet who are truly and mostly 'evil'.
They really do exist (Godwin's law notwithstanding ;-)

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Is anyone here familiar with the Church Senate Committee of the 1970's, and their findings?

It's a good example of the difficulties involved in dealing with the insane or psychopaths in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

[reggie]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

It's a good example of the difficulties involved in dealing with the insane or psychopaths in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee

My point was to highlight the findings of the committee's investigation of the MKUltra program....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra

Project MKUltra is the code name for a covert research operation experimenting in the behavioral engineering of humans (mind control) through the CIA's Scientific Intelligence Division. The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and "officially halted" in 1973.^[1] The program engaged in many illegal activities;^[2][3][4][5] in particular it used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects, which led to controversy regarding its legitimacy.^[6][7][8][9] MKUltra involved the use of many methodologies to manipulate people's individual mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD) and other chemicals, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, as well as various forms of torture.^[10]
The scope of Project MKUltra was broad, with research undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies.^[11] The CIA operated through these institutions using front organizations, although sometimes top officials at these institutions were aware of the CIA's involvement.^[12] MKUltra was allocated 6 percent of total CIA funds.^[13]

Project MKUltra was first brought to public attention in 1975 by the Church Committee of the U.S. Congress, and a Gerald Ford commission to investigate CIA activities within the United States. Investigative efforts were hampered by the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms ordered all MKUltra files destroyed in 1973; the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission investigations relied on the sworn testimony of direct participants and on the relatively small number of documents that survived Helms' destruction order.^[14]

[bart]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

My point was to highlight the findings of the committee's investigation of the MKUltra program....

Pretty nasty stuff. I've heard rumors (unconfirmed of course) for years that many of the actual results and data are still around, in spite of assertions that all was destroyed.

I'm more concerned about the combination of Bernays type work with SSRIs and other psych meds, or even the SRI work with paranormal phenomena in the early 70s (although it seems it wasn't reliable enough for them from what I have read).

Besides, "Happiness is a warm gun." ;-)

[shiny!]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

My point was to highlight the findings of the committee's investigation of the MKUltra program....

My late husband had a roommate in college, a dear friend, who now lives in a remote area above the arctic circle. While in the military in the early 70's, he was repeatedly given LSD and confined in a small box with live snakes. He became psychotic. The experience left him deeply paranoid of the government and afraid to travel south of the arctic circle for fear of encountering a snake.

[shiny!]

Feinstein to Introduce Updated Assult Weapons Ban

Here we go. Registration is always the precursor to confiscation:

http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/publ...ssault-weapons

In January, Senator Feinstein will introduce a bill to stop the sale, transfer, importation and manufacturing of military-style assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition feeding devices.

Following is a summary of the 2013 legislation:

• Bans the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacturing of:
  • 120 specifically-named firearms;
  • Certain other semiautomatic rifles, handguns, shotguns that can accept a detachable magazine and have one or more military characteristics; and
  • Semiautomatic rifles and handguns with a fixed magazine that can accept more than 10 rounds.
  
  
• Strengthens the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and various state bans by:
  • Moving from a 2-characteristic test to a 1-characteristic test;
  • Eliminating the easy-to-remove bayonet mounts and flash suppressors from the characteristics test; and
  • Banning firearms with “thumbhole stocks” and “bullet buttons” to address attempts to “work around” prior bans.
  
  
• Bans large-capacity ammunition feeding devices capable of accepting more than 10 rounds.
• Protects legitimate hunters and the rights of existing gun owners by:
  • Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment;
  • Exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes; and
  • Exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons.
  
  
• Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include:
  • Background check of owner and any transferee;
  • Type and serial number of the firearm;
  • Positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint;
  • Certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and
  • Dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration.
  
  

[Master Shake]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I hope not to sound glib or trite, but those who are opposed to guns are very much like religious zealots. No amount of logic and reason will help you. I speak from personal experience as I am married to one.

[BadJuju]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I hope not to sound glib or trite, but those who are opposed to guns are very much like religious zealots. No amount of logic and reason will help you. I speak from personal experience as I am married to one.

Any issue as charged as this one will have zealots on both sides. Gun control maniacs are just as matched by gun toting freaks.