Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Gun Control Anyone?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

    by JOE GIAMBRONE

    Well, you probably don’t want to look at more than 60 different documented school shooters and stabbers who were on antidepressant drugs when they attacked innocent children in suicidal, violent outbursts. Not if your mind is already made up that “it’s the guns” and that yet another “gun control” law will suddenly fix things. It won’t. Nor will the congressional testimony of Dr. Peter Breggin on the dangers of SSRIs and the proven links to suicide and violent ideation interest you, as long as there is one factor, and one solution, and this sort of information doesn’t fit into your preconception.

    If this latest psycho-killer boy, Adam Lanza, had stolen a car and run over 26 people, would the most glaring problem be not enough car regulations?

    Or if he had chosen to run around with a chainsaw instead, would the call now be for more chainsaw control? Or would the focus have turned to just banning the Texas Chainsaw Massacre films?

    Why do they do it?

    More than a little evidence suggests that antidepressant medications, prescribed by psychiatrists – who have a vested stake in the public perception of this issue – are a contributing factor in the majority of such spree massacres. The drug corporations, which produce these medications and which pay for massive advertising campaigns on TV, in newspapers, on the radio and in magazines, certainly want their friendly press outlets to come up with a different culprit. However, the lengthy list of warnings, right on the labels of these drugs, is an indication that the links are real, not very well understood, and potentially catastrophic.

    Even Time Magazine reported on links between prescription drugs and violence:


    Desvenlafaxine (Pristiq)
    … 7.9 times more likely to be associated with violence than other drugs.
    Venlafaxine (Effexor) … 8.3 times…
    Fluvoxamine (Luvox) … 8.4 times…
    Triazolam (Halcion) … 8.7 times…
    Atomoxetine (Strattera) … 9 times…
    Mefoquine (Lariam) … 9.5 times…
    Amphetamines: (Various) … 9.6 times…
    Paroxetine (Paxil) … 10.3 times…
    Fluoxetine (Prozac) … 10.9 times…
    Varenicline (Chantix) … 18 times… (Time)


    As Dr. Breggin calls it on his website:


    “Antidepressants cause emotional anesthesia and numbing or sometimes euphoria, providing a fleeting, artificial relief from emotional suffering. … In the long run, all psychiatric drugs tend to disrupt the normal processes of feeling and thinking, rendering the individual less able to deal effectively with personal problems and with life’s challenges. They worsen the individual’s overall mental condition and produce potentially irreversible harm to the brain.”


    Breggin provided expert testimony and dire warnings to a congressional committee and cautioned against dispensing antidepressants to military personnel out of a very real fear of resulting violence by well-armed troops.

    Even the FDA has had to impose stronger warnings on these “medicines” over the years, in response to the real world data. The 2007 update to the “Black Box” warnings, which are mandatory and included with all antidepressants says:

    “Clinical Worsening and Suicide Risk:
    Patients, their families, and their caregivers should be encouraged to be alert to the emergence of anxiety, agitation, panic attacks, insomnia, irritability, hostility, aggressiveness, impulsivity, akathisia (psychomotor restlessness), hypomania, mania, other unusual changes in behavior, worsening of depression, and suicidal ideation, especially early during antidepressant treatment and when the dose is adjusted up or down. Families and caregivers of patients should be advised to look for the emergence of such symptoms on a day-to-day basis, since changes may be abrupt. … Symptoms such as these may be associated with an increased risk for suicidal thinking and behavior and indicate a need for very close monitoring and possibly changes in the medication.” (FDA, emphasis added)


    The United States abandoned its mentally ill citizens back in the 1980s. Now they live under bridges. I see them with their tent city near my favorite Chinese restaurant. The great shining city on the hill doesn’t give a damn who’s living outdoors now. The stigma about mental illness has worked its way through the rest of society, but not in the obvious way.

    People don’t reject “treatment” as long as it’s a pill you can take, a brain fix-all. This convenience culture idea of the quick fix is what has lived on, and now psychiatric “treatment” consists primarily of trying various drugs on patients, having them report the way the drugs affected them, and then trying other drugs. Repeat ad infinitum. This guinea pig approach to psychiatry is what I have witnessed for many years, and with a variety of different psychiatrists. They no longer seek out the underlying traumas of patients, as in the old quaint days. It is all about the drugs today, and nothing else is even discussed.
    Psychiatrists are corporate America’s drug pushers.

    Banning Guns For Citizens?

    Now I’m going to get a lot of hostile responses for bucking the knee-jerk hysteria about banning assault rifles that’s going around. It seems to me like this issue was custom-tailored to distract the nation from the “fiscal cliff” backroom betrayals currently gutting your Social Security and Medicare inside the centers of power. There are numerous massacres, unfortunately. The media volume generated by this particular one is like a tsunami and changes the top story away from the machinations of the White House and Congress, where their long-planned deal-making could potentially kill many, many more people than the occasional shooting spree. They actually do kill many, many more children in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and elsewhere… but that’s a different article.

    I see no problem clamping down on high-capacity assault rifles. But I don’t for a second believe that’s going to change anything. What exactly can you do with an assault rifle, that you can’t do with a thousand other different kinds of guns? Reloading isn’t really that time-consuming or difficult. Multiple weapons are easy to obtain, especially if one is motivated enough and doesn’t care if they make it out alive. So how does that solve the problem?

    Similarly, the “background checks” don’t catch spree shooters who don’t have criminal records and just one day snap. There’s nothing to check, and future-crime has not been wiped out yet.

    Ah, the nuclear option – ban all the guns. That’s next.

    There’s an interesting idea. With 300,000,000 guns in America, it should be no problem to just collect them all. Criminals would be first to line up at the weapon depository and rape scan center. Once the criminals are disarmed, things will go smoothly.

    Some suggest that the population doesn’t need to be armed, as an armed rebellion against a tyrannical regime is futile. That’s a selective reading of history (and of the Bill of Rights), but even granted it was true, weapons are useful for self-defense from whomever. They can be indispensable in times of chaos or collapse. We do retain the right to defend ourselves, but apparently a lot of liberal/left types would make that technically impossible, by forcibly disarming everyone who complies.

    Oh, no doubt, you could be re-armed by enlisting in some civilian human-drone force, as Obama first proposed back in 2008. Selective service in some organized policing force or military unit in order to graduate from high school was a wet dream proposal of the current president’s. Does this explain the “450 million rounds of 40 caliber” hollow-point ammunition that the Department of Homeland Security just ordered. Perhaps forced teenage DHS police labor can replace professional local police forces, which can be laid off in order to enact even more budget cuts around the nation. There’s a great idea.

    But guns are here to stay. They aren’t going anywhere. America is an “armed madhouse” as Greg Palast phrased it, so perhaps it’s time to take a closer look at the “mad” part of the equation.

    Comment


    • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

      Originally posted by unlucky View Post

      How about technology solutions such as biometrics that prevent a gun being used by anyone except its legitimate owner? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Gun
      given that lanza's mother took him target shooting, he would likely have been encoded as a legitimate user of any biometrically locked weapon in their home.

      the dangerously mentally ill are a very small subset of the population with psychiatric illness, and a difficult subset to identify until they commit at least one violent act.

      since the 1970's "de-institutionalization" and "treatment in the community" have been the watchwords for severe, psychotic mental illness. some supported this to save money, some with the thought it was more humane. many, many state hospitals were closed. [the largest inpatient psychiatric facility in the country today is within the l.a. county jail.] meanwhile, funding for the supposed treatment in the community is quite limited.

      meanwhile, too, we have a system that is very focused on an individual right of liberty, and it is very difficult for families with potentially dangerous mentally ill members to restrict or control them until AFTER they are violent. there are reports that the trigger for adam lanza's killing spree was his mother's express intent to gain conservatorship so she could sign him into an institution. gaining such conservatorship is a somewhat arduous and expensive legal process, and many families don't even know that such a process exists.

      so the bottom line of de-institutionalization and the right of individual liberty is that our society is lightly sprinkled with potentially dangerous crazy people.

      and, of course, our society is much more heavily sprinkled with weapons, based on another right- the right to bear arms. so it should not be a surprise that potentially dangerous crazy people acquire lethal means to express themselves.

      this is just a restatement of a problem at hand. any "solution", defined as a reduction in the probability of a crazy person committing random mayhem, will involve an impingement on one or both of the rights that underpin the problem.
      Last edited by jk; December 21, 2012, 11:10 AM.

      Comment


      • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

        Originally posted by bpr
        There is no more effective method of killing than a well-aimed gun.
        Actually, the statistics show the most effective weapon in war is the land mine.

        The most effective machine for killing in the United States today is the automobile:

        http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

        All injury deaths

        • Number of deaths: 177,154
        • Deaths per 100,000 population: 57.7

        Motor vehicle traffic deaths

        • Number of deaths: 34,485
        • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.2

        All poisoning deaths

        • Number of deaths: 41,592
        • Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.5

        All firearm deaths

        • Number of deaths: 31,347
        • Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.2
        There are 254,212,610 registered passenger vehicles in the US, and 310 million non-military firearms. As each vehicle is 11% deadlier than a gun, clearly we should be banning cars. Ooh! and poisons - definitely we should ban those. No more Drano in stores. /sarc

        The most likely way to kill is to throw someone/throw yourself off a tall bridge.

        A gun is by far the easiest to use - badly - but ultimately it is a tool just like a baseball bat, a bow and arrow, a sword, or CLUE game murder weapon.

        Comment


        • Hunting truancy in Vermont.

          Originally posted by rogermexico View Post
          I lived in a small town in Iowa in the 1970's. I remember as a junior high student riding through town on bicycles early in the morning with our shotguns to go duck hunting on nearby public land. No one thought it was weird or threatening.
          Along those lines, I had a friend who grew up in Vermont. He said during the first two weeks of deer season, many of the boys would be gone from school. If the school called the boy's home, someone would answer "he's hunting" . End of conversation. He did say that people would put plaid blankets on thier livestock, dogs, children, if they were anywhere near a woods. But as to the guns causing a risk of murder or mass shooting, nobody seemed to be worried about that.

          These are rifles, of course, not handguns.

          Comment


          • Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

            Originally posted by don View Post
            by JOE GIAMBRONE

            Well, you probably don’t want to look at more than 60 different documented school shooters and stabbers who were on antidepressant drugs when they attacked innocent children in suicidal, violent outbursts. .
            If Giambrone is on track, what about Obama's plea to make mental health treatment more available?

            When I heard BO, I thought the shooter was an untreated psychotic. Was he a depressive turned psychotic by the "treatment" ?

            Should the gun screening include mental health?

            Many guns are bought at gun shows, where there is no background check.
            What is the logic of requiring a background check/waiting periode at a gun store, but having no such requirement at gun shows?

            Lawyers, please explain this !

            Comment


            • Re: Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

              Originally posted by Polish_Silver View Post
              If Giambrone is on track, what about Obama's plea to make mental health treatment more available?
              post hoc, ergo propter hoc? which is cause, and which effect?
              otoh, antidepressants can elicit psychosis and/or agitation in people with bipolar disorder?
              conclusion: you need a LOT more data on those shooters to come to any conclusions.

              Comment


              • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                There are 254,212,610 registered passenger vehicles in the US, and 310 million non-military firearms. As each vehicle is 11% deadlier than a gun, clearly we should be banning cars. Ooh! and poisons - definitely we should ban those. No more Drano in stores. /sarc
                Let's not forget all those killed by medical mistakes:

                How to Stop Hospital From Killing Us

                Medical mistakes kill enough people each week to fill four jumbo jets...

                ...If medical errors were a disease, they would be the sixth leading cause of death in America—just behind accidents and ahead of Alzheimer's. The human toll aside, medical errors cost the U.S. health-care system tens of billions a year. Some 20% to 30% of all medications, tests and procedures are unnecessary, according to research done by medical specialists, surveying their own fields. What other industry misses the mark this often?
                and adverse drug reactions:

                Adverse Drug Events in U.S. Hospitals - Statistical Brief

                In 2004, ADEs were noted in 1,211,100 hospital stays, or about 3.1 percent of all stays. ADEs can be split into several broad categories, as shown in figure 1. The vast majority of ADEs (90.3 percent, or 1,093,600 stays) represented adverse effects of drugs. These are drugs properly administered in therapeutic and prophylactic dosages but which cause adverse reactions, including allergic or hypersensitivity reactions. Most remaining ADEs were drug poisoning, which involve accidental drug overdose, wrong drugs taken or given in error, or drugs taken inadvertently. Drug poisoning accounted for 8.6 percent of all coded ADEs (104,200 stays).
                Prescription drugs kill!!!!! The only solution is to ban prescription drugs!!!!! We need laws to ban prescription drugs!!!!!

                Doctors kill!!!!! (jk excluded) The only solution is to ban doctors!!!!! (jk excluded) We need laws to ban doctors!!!!! (jk excluded)

                Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                Comment


                • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

                  http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news...-violence?lite

                  http://wtop.com/289/3166870/NRA-calls-for-armed-police-officer-in-every-schoo

                  Clue posted:

                  {"All firearm deaths
                  • Number of deaths: 31,347
                  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.2" }

                  60% of these firearm death are suicides, so there are maybe 12,000 plus gun homicides per year; far less than automobile related deaths or medical errors. Of any death by a gun homicide is not acceptable.
                  Last edited by vt; December 21, 2012, 09:07 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

                    Originally posted by jk View Post
                    given that lanza's mother took him target shooting, he would likely have been encoded as a legitimate user of any biometrically locked weapon in their home.
                    Based on reports, it seems clear that Lanza's mother trusted him, and that trust was misplaced. It's a sad case because by all accounts she was a responsible lady but was blind to this error of judgement.

                    However a biometric system could potentially be designed so that official authorization is required to encode anyone as a user of the weapon, i.e. Ms Lanza would not have been able to add her son as a weapon user unless he also passed the required official checks. Hopefully he would not have passed, although obviously no system is fool proof - the best you can hope for is incremental risk reduction.

                    the dangerously mentally ill are a very small subset of the population with psychiatric illness, and a difficult subset to identify until they commit at least one violent act.

                    since the 1970's "de-institutionalization" and "treatment in the community" have been the watchwords for severe, psychotic mental illness. some supported this to save money, some with the thought it was more humane. many, many state hospitals were closed. [the largest inpatient psychiatric facility in the country today is within the l.a. county jail.] meanwhile, funding for the supposed treatment in the community is quite limited.

                    meanwhile, too, we have a system that is very focused on an individual right of liberty, and it is very difficult for families with potentially dangerous mentally ill members to restrict or control them until AFTER they are violent. there are reports that the trigger for adam lanza's killing spree was his mother's express intent to gain conservatorship so she could sign him into an institution. gaining such conservatorship is a somewhat arduous and expensive legal process, and many families don't even know that such a process exists.

                    so the bottom line of de-institutionalization and the right of individual liberty is that our society is lightly sprinkled with potentially dangerous crazy people.

                    and, of course, our society is much more heavily sprinkled with weapons, based on another right- the right to bear arms. so it should not be a surprise that potentially dangerous crazy people acquire lethal means to express themselves.

                    this is just a restatement of a problem at hand. any "solution", defined as a reduction in the probability of a crazy person committing random mayhem, will involve an impingement on one or both of the rights that underpin the problem.
                    All very valid points.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

                      The NRA solution - armed guards in the schools.

                      It's refreshing that there's no hidden, guns sales, agenda in their solution.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

                        So ban assault weapons and magazines, then the monsters will use shotguns or handguns. If you ban them too then they could bring gasoline and bombs (which happened at a school in 1927). Or they could use axes.

                        What's wrong with an armed guard to protect our children. We have them everywhere else. There are bad people out there; they have to be stopped.

                        What about the proposals to address violent video games, TV shows, Movies, and music. Shouldn't we ban those too? Of course the free speech crowd would jump all over that. These are complex problems.

                        We arm police and others to protect us. If we have to have police in schools, then our children have a far better chance of being protected.

                        By the way I'm not a member of the NRA, and haven't fired a gun since ROTC training 50 years ago. I have no agenda. Communities with concealed carry and open carry have far less gun crime than those that have gun control.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

                          Originally posted by vt View Post
                          So ban assault weapons and magazines, then the monsters will use shotguns or handguns. If you ban them too then they could bring gasoline and bombs (which happened at a school in 1927). Or they could use axes.

                          What's wrong with an armed guard to protect our children. We have them everywhere else. There are bad people out there; they have to be stopped.

                          What about the proposals to address violent video games, TV shows, Movies, and music. Shouldn't we ban those too? Of course the free speech crowd would jump all over that. These are complex problems.

                          We arm police and others to protect us. If we have to have police in schools, then our children have a far better chance of being protected.

                          By the way I'm not a member of the NRA, and haven't fired a gun since ROTC training 50 years ago. I have no agenda. Communities with concealed carry and open carry have far less gun crime than those that have gun control.
                          It wasn't meant as a criticism of the idea but a mild rebuke of an organization whose choice from the menu was one that benefits themselves. That's all.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

                            to me it's both sad and frightening that people are seriously considering the idea of putting armed guards at every elementary, middle and h.s. in the country. what have we come to?

                            Comment


                            • Re: Gun Control Anyone?

                              Originally posted by bpr View Post
                              I agree... There are no "satanic objects." But in the hands of the possessed (using your terminology), a firearm is a far more effective tool than, say, a knife.

                              Then I guess we better ban guns, knives, cars, and Big Macs......DEFINITELY Big Macs...the number of suicide by Big Mac each year is truly appalling.

                              I have never felt such a need, despite being in some very dire circumstances. Perhaps you'd care to share with us a time you felt the need to pack heat in the general public and, more importantly, the number of times you've felt the need overseas as a civilian.

                              While I always avoided North Philadelphia which is a place where mostly black people murder other black people and that we collectively ignore(Obama must not have any young black men there he considers "sons" like Treyvon), I had less choice when it came to West Philadelphia, U of Penn. In the early 90's I had to spent time around University City on an internship, I was first responder to a murder by firearm at a petrol station. In another event during the same period my vehicle was stuck within the crime scene tape of an organized crime related murder requiring me to find alternate means for the night. In the mid 90's I was back at U of Penn's Wharton School going in the evening after work, on the first week of class and between the parking lot I used and campus there were two people murdered at the ATM machine and someone else beaten and lit on fire. In the earlier incidents, I didn't carry concealed, in the later incidents at Wharton I did.

                              I've traveled and worked a number of places in uniform and out of uniform. Out of uniform the most dangerous places I've been include South Africa and Kenya. South Africa is exceptionally dangerous. The violence and hatred was absolutely palpable. The home next door to where I was hosted(most homes are built like bunkers) was broken into and 1 person murdered the night before we arrived out of the bush. Cambodia is pretty violent but they tend to direct their violence at each other and keep it away from foreigners.

                              In Afghanistan I wear civilian clothing and am licensed there to carry firearms and wear body armor. I haven't worn the body armor yet but tool up with weapon(s) discretely when needed, often not(so far).


                              I hate to resort to ridicule, but is the King of England poking you right now? Are you really the subject of tyranny? Ok, put down the gun. Now, is the King of England poking you?

                              I used a bit of sarcasm RE the Big Macs, but I really don't understand some people's complete failure to grasp the concept.

                              Many of the people who support aggressive gun control laws expect it to somehow magically work, while many of these same people openly flaunt laws regarding recreational drug use.....because those recreational drug laws are as equally insane to implement, manage, and fund.

                              It's also a question of human nature. The Framers had a pretty good handle on human nature in my opinion, and I don't think human nature has changed in the last 236 or so years.

                              We have not evolved overnight into some sort of hipster enlightenment.

                              Laws never have and never will stop people from drinking, fighting, fcuking, feeding, smoking, etc.


                              Until one of them shoots up a school, right?

                              Ask yourself why you REALLY care so much about gun control. You have admitted you have not been affected by firearms crime, but you're so incredibly passionate about something that has had no effect on you, but statistically you have probably been seriously affected by loved ones killed in automobile related violence, and the slow suicide of obesity.

                              How many really obese people are in your life? How many fatal motor vehicle accidents have had a impact on your life?

                              So why so passionate about gun control again?


                              Ok, so the King of England is poking you.
                              One of the King's subjects, George Orwell wrote:

                              “That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”

                              Gun Control is simply not working for the Queen & Country:

                              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...89-decade.html

                              What I simply cannot fathom is some people's belief system that the 2nd Amendment's role in the deterrence of tyranny is somehow obsolete or antiquated like buggy whips and floppy discs.

                              I will believe that when people stop breaking the law en masse going to prostitutes with a bag of cocaine.

                              There is a BIG difference between fear and danger. They are often confused, often intentionally.

                              Fearing a communist behind every bush, fearing an Al Quada terrorist in every shopping mall, fearing a crazy person with an assault murder cannon in every school is irrational.....but useful momentum to be shaped for political advantage.

                              Danger is real.....apolitical measurement of danger is what matters.

                              There's probably more rational behavior being exhibited at a Justin Beiber concert by a bunch of screaming hormone injected teenage girls than this "national debate".

                              I suggest a one year time out and a free copy of the Constitution/Federalist Papers for everyone in the country.

                              THEN decide on what to do.

                              I've answered your questions.......and in all seriousness, please answer mine:

                              If the 4th Estate still existed in the form of a balanced and diverse(bias/ownership) mass media platform, why do we have to come to an internet speakeasy to get content from EJ with such an outstanding and quantifiable track record?

                              If the 4th Estate is largely gone(replaced with a Orwellian/Gilliam Outsourced Ministry of Aligned Interest Infotainment, Shock, and Awe) as posited above, and if the US political process is corrupted from the special interest money, then what exactly are the checks and balances against a slow descent into tyranny?

                              Or will Hipster Doctrine(drooling about Scandinavian Socialism Success porn) magically save us from our deeply flawed political system?

                              Trying to get Americans to abandon their firearms is a bit like trying to get Pashtuns to abandon Pashtunwali.........it's silly.

                              You'd think we'd have already learned enough lessons form the carnage we've caused in trying to change the course of foreign cultures as if they were sports cars instead of glaciers.

                              Now we're going to fail in trying to change our own culture.

                              Where's Terry Gilliam......he needs to make Brazil 2.0 stat!

                              Comment


                              • Re: Shooting caused by prescription drugs?

                                Originally posted by jk View Post
                                to me it's both sad and frightening that people are seriously considering the idea of putting armed guards at every elementary, middle and h.s. in the country. what have we come to?
                                Bunch of knee-jerk reactionary people that are afraid of their own shadow.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X