Gun Control Anyone?

[Roughneck]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

The shooter in Colorado didn't pick the closest Movie theater to his residence or the largest. He chose one that banned the legal carry of concealed weapons. I view owning weapons and yes semiautomatic rifles and pistols as an expression of self determination. My most basic right is life and liberty. I do not want to turn over the protection of that right to the police or my government.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” George Orwell

I'm not concerned about the infringement of firearms ownership rights when it comes to protecting my family from criminals nearly as much as I am about the infringement of our collective responsibility to deter tyranny.

The 2nd Amendment is like an insurance policy against tyranny.....unfortunately, the cost of the insurance premium recently has been quite high.

Maybe we should look at adjusting the deductible instead of throwing away the insurance coverage.

Especially in light of how the 2nd Estate has absorbed the 4th Estate like the Borg....what's left?

Internet Freedom is absolutely critical.....and a continued 2nd Amendment not only deters tyranny, but I think also betters the odds that we avoid a darker and more violent path.

[leegs]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I have guns and have generally not been in favor of gun control. I also appreciate what I see as sensible arguments here on the forum from sensible people arguing against gun control. But I admit to some introspection on the subject in light of recent events. So let me throw out some random thoughts.

- on the issue of an armed citizenry resisting a despotic government: practically how does anyone see this taking place? Is there no other means to resist the increasing despotism? And if not, what is the catalyst to resist it via armed resistance? Frankly its hard to see how it comes to pass.

- related to the above point - my understanding is that the Nazis instituted gun control as they took power. When the NRA mentions this, the implication is that if they had not done so, the good German people would have overthrown the Nazis before they got out of hand. I don't buy it.

- how do we reconcile the generally higher murder rate in the US vs other developed nations? Is it purely a matter of culture, and is it totally wrong to blame any of it on the availability of guns? Sure people can and do murder using knives and axes and gasoline. But as hard as it is to kill someone with a gun because of the innate human/animal aversion to killing its own kind (I imagine that even your typical sociopath has to work himself up to it the first time), its got to be a hell of a lot easier than to do it with some other weapon. Further to this point is the glorification of all things 'tactical' amongst a subset of the gun-liking population, and I have to think that indeed guns make it easy and make it seem cool.

- is there absolutely no room for consideration of any different approach regarding guns than what we have now? Sadly its like most other subjects, the issue is framed in a bilateral way with 2 and only 2 sides, and real discussion doesn't happen.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I have guns and have generally not been in favor of gun control. I also appreciate what I see as sensible arguments here on the forum from sensible people arguing against gun control. But I admit to some introspection on the subject in light of recent events. So let me throw out some random thoughts.

- on the issue of an armed citizenry resisting a despotic government: practically how does anyone see this taking place? Is there no other means to resist the increasing despotism? And if not, what is the catalyst to resist it via armed resistance? Frankly its hard to see how it comes to pass.

- related to the above point - my understanding is that the Nazis instituted gun control as they took power. When the NRA mentions this, the implication is that if they had not done so, the good German people would have overthrown the Nazis before they got out of hand. I don't buy it.

- how do we reconcile the generally higher murder rate in the US vs other developed nations? Is it purely a matter of culture, and is it totally wrong to blame any of it on the availability of guns? Sure people can and do murder using knives and axes and gasoline. But as hard as it is to kill someone with a gun because of the innate human/animal aversion to killing its own kind (I imagine that even your typical sociopath has to work himself up to it the first time), its got to be a hell of a lot easier than to do it with some other weapon. Further to this point is the glorification of all things 'tactical' amongst a subset of the gun-liking population, and I have to think that indeed guns make it easy and make it seem cool.

- is there absolutely no room for consideration of any different approach regarding guns than what we have now? Sadly its like most other subjects, the issue is framed in a bilateral way with 2 and only 2 sides, and real discussion doesn't happen.

Personally, I'm hopeful the freedom we currently retain on the internet will provide the catalyst/platform to effect real substantive change to a clearly broken and failing political process in the US.

I'm hopeful the internet will remain an effective means of communication, distribution, and discovery of the truth....and that it's not "Borg'd" like conventional mass media consolidation of ownership with the "Big 6".

I'm concerned that if the internet is lost, then the only thing left is an inevitable slow boil to tyranny requiring violence as the only means of restoring a healthy democracy....that would seriously suck.

So firearms are made out to be like cigarettes, and firearms owners are made out to be like smokers.

Slowly boil the frog.

I blame television and the reality distortion field it can create.

Tyranny doesn't come in the form of a Hitler TV mini series....tyranny happens over months, years, decades....tyranny is welcomed into people's homes with open arms.

My hope is that the internet is the tool we use to seize back control of effective democracy, my fear is that firearms will actually be necessary to effectively deter tyranny that opposes peaceful and legal action.

We should be ashamed as MEN that our idea of protecting the defenseless is declaring a school a "gun-free zone"

One of my favourite photos while deployed a number of years ago was one taken of my unit in front of a sign at approx 5am, about an hour after we conducted an operation to capture 3 cop killers.

We captured them and their illegal weapons cache with no casualties on either/any side and handed them over to the locals for arrest and prosecution.

The sign said "Weapons Free Village".

I guess none of them could read.....otherwise, surely they would have respected the sign....right?

Meh.......I reckon this whole Gun Control issue is not TOO much of a legitimate threat to the 2nd amendment.

BUT I think it represents a means for one party to distract the public and logjam the other party.

If Gun Control goes thru in 2013, then it's a Democrat win

If Gun Control fails in 2013, then it's a Republican loss for wanting children to be murdered

But regardless of what happens with Gun Control it is a Republicrat win since it distracts the public away from any debate on long-term existential threats to their control.....distract/delay.

Last year it was the President claiming Treyvon could be his son(but not the other thousands of black sons killed by black offenders, just the one shot by a non-black offender) that offered a fantastic opportunity to divide/distract the population.

Local issues inflamed intentionally and unnecessarily into national issues that provide "time and space" for the Administration and it's special interest partners to shape public attention away from anything truly important.

[shiny!]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Deleted.

[shiny!]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I have guns and have generally not been in favor of gun control. I also appreciate what I see as sensible arguments here on the forum from sensible people arguing against gun control. But I admit to some introspection on the subject in light of recent events. So let me throw out some random thoughts.

- on the issue of an armed citizenry resisting a despotic government: practically how does anyone see this taking place? Is there no other means to resist the increasing despotism? And if not, what is the catalyst to resist it via armed resistance? Frankly its hard to see how it comes to pass.

- related to the above point - my understanding is that the Nazis instituted gun control as they took power. When the NRA mentions this, the implication is that if they had not done so, the good German people would have overthrown the Nazis before they got out of hand. I don't buy it.

- how do we reconcile the generally higher murder rate in the US vs other developed nations? Is it purely a matter of culture, and is it totally wrong to blame any of it on the availability of guns? Sure people can and do murder using knives and axes and gasoline. But as hard as it is to kill someone with a gun because of the innate human/animal aversion to killing its own kind (I imagine that even your typical sociopath has to work himself up to it the first time), its got to be a hell of a lot easier than to do it with some other weapon. Further to this point is the glorification of all things 'tactical' amongst a subset of the gun-liking population, and I have to think that indeed guns make it easy and make it seem cool.

- is there absolutely no room for consideration of any different approach regarding guns than what we have now? Sadly its like most other subjects, the issue is framed in a bilateral way with 2 and only 2 sides, and real discussion doesn't happen.

On your first point, I see what you're saying and have wondered the same thing myself. How could an armed citizenry ever take up said arms and hope to win against a government force equipped with the high-tech crowd control weapons they have today? We couldn't. But OTOH, how much worse would the government overstep its bounds against our privacy if we weren't armed to the teeth?

On your second point, I don't think the Germans would have overthrown the Nazis if they had been armed, because most of the Germans supported the Nazis. (it's not PC to say that, but it's the truth) But with only a handful of weapons, the starving Jewish resistance in the Warsaw ghetto held off the German army for a month. Imagine if they had all been armed.

It isn't the guns in this country causing the high murder rate, it's the culture of violence. Most of the murders are criminals shot in the commission of crimes. No gun control laws will stop those guys from getting guns, so what's the point of considering more gun control? I'd rather legalize drugs and take away the profit motive that drives the crime. And give every law-abiding citizen free training in gun safety and a concealed carry permit after they pass a competency test.

Switzerland requires every male citizen to have an "assault rifle", does it not? And it's a peaceful country.

Violence on TV, violent games that desensitize people to killing, the HUGE illegal drug trade, gangs related to the illegal drug trade, a HUGE percentage of our population taking anti-depressants and other mood altering drugs that can actually cause the behavious we've seen lately... ALL of these things need to be addressed.

[Roughneck]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

If you look at the statistics the murder rate in the US is largely a factor of black on black crime in major metropolitan areas, Chicago,DC,New Orleans. Poverty,drugs,high unemployment all these socioeconomic factors lead to crime and violence. But I would be willing to bet that if you were to survey the amount of guns per capita that my rural suburban area would have a higher rate of firearms ownership and the violent crime rate by comparison is next to nothing.

[don]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

If you look at the statistics the murder rate in the US is largely a factor of black on black crime in major metropolitan areas, Chicago,DC,New Orleans. Poverty,drugs,high unemployment all these socioeconomic factors lead to crime and violence. But I would be willing to bet that if you were to survey the amount of guns per capita that my rural suburban area would have a higher rate of firearms ownership and the violent crime rate by comparison is next to nothing.

Nice encapsulation of the American gun landscape over the last few decades. During Prohibition, of course, it was Irish on Irish, Italians on Italians, Jews on Jews, Irish on Italians, Jews on Irish and Italians on Jews. The commonality appears to be control of something the public wants, which enjoys a super profit being officially illegal, worth killing over. At least in the urban environment. Today's well armed suburbia and exo-suburbs, with low violent crime rates, can trace their heritage in part back to FIRE's white flight paradigm.

[Verrocchio]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Switzerland requires every male citizen to have an "assault rifle", does it not? And it's a peaceful country. [/QUOTE]

Swiss reservists keep their fully automatic rifles in their homes until separation from service at age 30. At that time the weapons are converted to semi-automatic. Ammunition is, however, controlled, and is not kept in homes.

Violence on TV, violent games that desensitize people to killing, the HUGE illegal drug trade, gangs related to the illegal drug trade, a HUGE percentage of our population taking anti-depressants and other mood altering drugs that can actually cause the behavious we've seen lately... ALL of these things need to be addressed.

Yes.

[flintlock]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

Meh.

If we really wanted to ban dangerous things, we'd ban media coverage of this kind of rampage. Every nut job out there knows now where the bar to really make an impact is set after Oregon and California.

Probably the most effective tactic. The incidence of these type attacks is not on the rise as much as the coverage of them. Of course its an impossible task to ban the media coverage, but it does seem to fuel this behavior.

[shiny!]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

(deleted post)

[flintlock]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

If someone wants to kill people he will find a way, either with box cutters and an airplane, with fertilizer like Timothy McVeigh, or with an axe or knife as in china

Ax-wielding man kills 3 kids, wounds 13 in China

http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_ne...-in-china?lite

How many remember this story? I was surprised I had never heard of it. The only gun involved was a single shot rifle used to detonate a bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, on May 18, 1927, which killed 38 elementary school children, two teachers, and four other adults; at least 58 people were injured. The perpetrator first killed his wife, and committed suicide with his last explosion. Most of the victims were children in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age^[1]) attending theBath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.

History is full of school killings. A majority involved guns of some sort, but by no means all. Guns certainly can make the task easier I suppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elated_attacks

[flintlock]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2012/12/17/county-police-chief-recommends-arming-school-personnel/

A friend mentioed Israel's approach:

"In the early 70's, Israel was faced with much greater problems of armed terrorist attacks on schools. The cry for more gun control was heard then too, but Israel very carefully analyzed all possible options before adopting the proactive position of arming and training selected teachers. School shootings stopped and terrorists looked for easier targets. Gun control never has and never will stop criminals and madmen from carrying out acts of gun violence."

China has seen school children killed by knives:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_...010–2011)

Who knows what the right approach is? Better mental illness training? We need a way to deter individuals from doing this; if trained individuals with guns can stop it anywhere, we may be safer.

In looking into this subject, I have noticed the perps avoid at all costs places where gun carrying citizens might frequent. Its possibly one reason schools are chosen.

This serial killer stalked victims in parks because he knew firearms were not allowed there.

http://investigation.discovery.com/i...-mountain.html

And this concealed carry permit holder may have saved lives without firing a shot, during the recent mall shooting.

http://www.infowars.com/report-armed...mall-shooting/

I find the level of violence in the US disgusting. But I'm not sure gun bans will do much at this point other than disarm innocent civilians and leave them at the mercy of thugs. I'm not for video game bans either, but I can tell you some people today are very desensitized by the violence in them.

[flintlock]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

I understand your sentiment, yet my kids are in public school and I really don't think they'd be much safer if I home schooled.

We have a couple of teenage drivers on my cul-de-sac, not to slam the teenagers, but my kids are in more danger riding their bikes in front of the house than they are at school (once they're away from the cell phone moms in the drop off lane).

One of the biggest problems we have is the lack of perspective. We view 30,000 annual deaths as an unfortunate byproduct of motor vehicle access when a bit more cooperation of our good citizens could easily cut this number by more than half with no changes to current laws. Slow down, look twice, skip the cell phone, no booze/drugs before driving and leave the mascara for the powder room..... a lot of fairly small changes could yield huge results.

I agree. I was saying much the same to my wife last night about perspective. Its not the numbers killed but rather how they are killed that shocks us all. The senselessness of it all.

[flintlock]

Re: Gun Control Anyone?

“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” George Orwell


I'm not concerned about the infringement of firearms ownership rights when it comes to protecting my family from criminals nearly as much as I am about the infringement of our collective responsibility to deter tyranny.

The 2nd Amendment is like an insurance policy against tyranny.....unfortunately, the cost of the insurance premium recently has been quite high.

Maybe we should look at adjusting the deductible instead of throwing away the insurance coverage.

Especially in light of how the 2nd Estate has absorbed the 4th Estate like the Borg....what's left?

Internet Freedom is absolutely critical.....and a continued 2nd Amendment not only deters tyranny, but I think also betters the odds that we avoid a darker and more violent path.

Of course a deterrent to tyranny was exactly what the writers of the constitution had in mind. Not the "hunting" BS some will try to throw out there as a red herring. Yes the price is expensive. But not as expensive as say, ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, etc.