Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

[Thailandnotes]

"In the West Contra Costa Schools' case, that $2.5 million bond will cost the district a whopping $34 million to repay, the School District Equivalent Of A Payday Loan."

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/07/166745...0-million-loan

Stadium give-aways, cable deals, paying corporations' employees' state tax...this article has me wondering what percent of state taxes are being used to pay for actual services, school buildings and roads vs. what percent goes for interest, fees, etc. I know FIRE has won, but 2.5 borrowed for 34 million repaid?

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

That's a great question, Thailandnotes.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

"In the West Contra Costa Schools' case, that $2.5 million bond will cost the district a whopping $34 million to repay, the School District Equivalent Of A Payday Loan."

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/07/166745...0-million-loan

Stadium give-aways, cable deals, paying corporations' employees' state tax...this article has me wondering what percent of state taxes are being used to pay for actual services, school buildings and roads vs. what percent goes for interest, fees, etc. I know FIRE has won, but 2.5 borrowed for 34 million repaid?

Best I can do on the fly:

Interest payments range from 1 to 10% of state expenditures per year:



Local and state added together:

[dcarrigg]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

"In the West Contra Costa Schools' case, that $2.5 million bond will cost the district a whopping $34 million to repay, the School District Equivalent Of A Payday Loan."

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/07/166745...0-million-loan

Stadium give-aways, cable deals, paying corporations' employees' state tax...this article has me wondering what percent of state taxes are being used to pay for actual services, school buildings and roads vs. what percent goes for interest, fees, etc. I know FIRE has won, but 2.5 borrowed for 34 million repaid?

Actually, Cate Long is probably the best reporter on this stuff this these days. Read her muniland blog here.

She does great work, and she is probably the most honest holder of the bullhorn. If we lobby her to do articles calculating percent of taxpayer dollars syphoned off, she would probably do an article on it.

Hint: If you're an ITuliper and you believe in finding this out, then post here, and link her to the thread.

[shiny!]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

Look at Massachusetts! How long can it last? Is their high debt by any chance due to their health care system?

[dcarrigg]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

Look at Massachusetts! How long can it last? Is their high debt by any chance due to their health care system?

Yeah, I'd imagine since Medicaid is the #1 state expense, covering everyone has something to do with it.

Also, a lot of the reason debt is higher in New England states is that they don't have county government. States hide debt at the county level in ways that New England can't. That's partially why I put the state/local chart below. When you include counties and towns, KY and SC actually look as bad off as MA! TX isn't too pretty either.

Politicians use this little fact to play politics. Obama hits Romney saying MA was the #1 state in debt. Well, true, but he doesn't mention the county thing. Rick Perry hits Romney saying TX has surpluses. They disappear when you peel back the hood though.

[shiny!]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

Yeah, I'd imagine since Medicaid is the #1 state expense, covering everyone has something to do with it.

Also, a lot of the reason debt is higher in New England states is that they don't have county government. States hide debt at the county level in ways that New England can't. That's partially why I put the state/local chart below. When you include counties and towns, KY and SC actually look as bad off as MA! TX isn't too pretty either.

Politicians use this little fact to play politics. Obama hits Romney saying MA was the #1 state in debt. Well, true, but he doesn't mention the county thing. Rick Perry hits Romney saying TX has surpluses. They disappear when you peel back the hood though.

Thanks for explaining that. I never would have caught it on my own.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

Thanks for explaining that. I never would have caught it on my own.

No problem. Actually, probably the best comparison side-by-side state-to-state is the fourth column from the left on that chart I posted from the CBO. That's where you see KY, SC, and MA are the deepest in debt, and ID, WY, and AK are the best off (WY by a long shot).

[lektrode]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

would be very illuminating, dc, to see a profile on the setup of the legislatures of the different states - for example: which ones are 'full time' leg vs part time, how much they get paid vs how indebted they are (my suspicion being the higher paid or more fulltime the leg is, the deeper in debt they are)

and wondren how much The Big Dig factors into MA's debt level vs how much NH's is a function of the recent wave of new arrivals and their suddenly noticing that living 'up in the sticks' they wont have the same schools/services as they did where they left and so clamor for MORE, MORE, MORE (whereupon The Pledge by candidates to not support 'broadbased' taxes will likely go the way of silver coinage, any day now)

[dcarrigg]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

would be very illuminating, dc, to see a profile on the setup of the legislatures of the different states - for example: which ones are 'full time' leg vs part time, how much they get paid vs how indebted they are (my suspicion being the higher paid or more fulltime the leg is, the deeper in debt they are)

and wondren how much The Big Dig factors into MA's debt level vs how much NH's is a function of the recent wave of new arrivals and their suddenly noticing that living 'up in the sticks' they wont have the same schools/services as they did where they left and so clamor for MORE, MORE, MORE (whereupon The Pledge by candidates to not support 'broadbased' taxes will likely go the way of silver coinage, any day now)

Yeah, the relationship between legislatures and debt doesn't map out quite as well as you might think. The breakdown of legislature pay is here. It seems to me that legislatures tend to get paid more in states with more population. And you have to watch them. Sneaky ones like Alabama say they only give $360 salary per year, then offer $4,000 per month unvouchered during the legislative session. Now, I've never been to Montgomery, but I'm guessing you can rent some place mighty nice for half that.

Anyhow, I just took annual salaries and plotted them against the debt to revenue percentage * 100 to give you an idea. There's pretty much no meaningful relationship between debt and legislative pay. (Higher debt is on the right, higher pay is at the top, lower debt is on the left, lower pay is at the bottom).

[LazyBoy]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

...this article has me wondering what percent of state taxes are being used to pay for actual services, school buildings and roads vs. what percent goes for interest, fees, etc. I know FIRE has won, but 2.5 borrowed for 34 million repaid?

I wonder how pervasive layers of debt make everything more expensive, even outside of government.

I buy a loaf of bread at the corner store.
The store owner is paying a commercial mortgage (or enough rent to pay the owner's).
The bread truck delivery guy is paying off his truck.
The local bakery is paying a mortgage.
The local bakery kicks money up to the national brand corporation, which has it's own debt.
Recurse for the bakery's suppliers...

How much of the cost of that loaf of bread went to debt service?

[dcarrigg]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

I wonder how pervasive layers of debt make everything more expensive, even outside of government.

I buy a loaf of bread at the corner store.
The store owner is paying a commercial mortgage (or enough rent to pay the owner's).
The bread truck delivery guy is paying off his truck.
The local bakery is paying a mortgage.
The local bakery kicks money up to the national brand corporation, which has it's own debt.
Recurse for the bakery's suppliers...

How much of the cost of that loaf of bread went to debt service?

I think that the 'debt service tax' paid to finance is liable to be almost as big as real tax these days for your median American. I'd guess that it's probably around 700 billion dollars per year total in the US, or $2,500 for every man, woman and child. And it's all regressive.

The median American makes about $15 per hour. That means if we just take the per capita figure, 8% of his/her pay is going to the 'bank tax.' That's more than goes into Social Security and Medicare combined. An American making $14 per hour would fall in the fabled 47%. At that point, he or she is paying more towards interest on average than to the federal government in total.

Of course, these comparisons are never direct. But it is worth thinking about.

[aaron]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

How much does it cost to get one of these licenses to print money and get paid interest for the privilege? I want to be a bank.

[c1ue]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

As Dr. Michael Hudson has noted many times before, modern finance is the means by which plundering is done these days.

I read a book called "The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire" - interesting read but not a great book by any means, but one item of note was that the Byzantine Empire was unusual in that it had a very strong tax harvest system. There would be a national budget determined, then the budget split out among regions, cities, towns, demographic groups like artisans, etc.

In contrast, the Byzantine Empire's opponents were handicapped by much more primitive harvest systems primarily involving men at arms. The Muslims improved on this by adding the equipage of jihadists as another way to show religious piety as well as having a 'head tax' on People of the Book (i.e. Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians), with the prospect of looting Byzantine towns as the 'bonus'.

To give an idea: Attila the Hun was paid 3 tons of gold in 447 in return for not attacking the Byzantines, with 1 extra ton per year going forward. One of the Byzantine emperors was purported to have spent 25 tons of gold to invade Africa. The doge of Venice purportedly paid 5 tons of gold and some priceless jewels to prompt the Fourth Crusade to sack Constantinople.

Today with fiat currency, it is far easier to 'plunder'. Our modern day Attilas don't have to sack a town or extract direct physical tribute - they just need to monopolize money creation.

[lektrode]

Re: Anybody seen an article on what percent of taxpayer dollars are being siphoned off?

Yeah, the relationship between legislatures and debt doesn't map out quite as well as you might think. The breakdown of legislature pay is here. It seems to me that legislatures tend to get paid more in states with more population. And you have to watch them. Sneaky ones like Alabama say they only give $360 salary per year, then offer $4,000 per month unvouchered during the legislative session. Now, I've never been to Montgomery, but I'm guessing you can rent some place mighty nice for half that.

Anyhow, I just took annual salaries and plotted them against the debt to revenue percentage * 100 to give you an idea. There's pretty much no meaningful relationship between debt and legislative pay. (Higher debt is on the right, higher pay is at the top, lower debt is on the left, lower pay is at the bottom).

well it was just a hunch - but i do appreciate the comeback, dc - we already suffer from too much mis-perception brought on by the daily dueling headlines, so when we get some data that counters that, its quite helpful - altho i must say that i still get the impression that where the D-side of the aisle calls most of the shots, the numbers tend to be worse (why NH is suffering lately, despite a fairly big uptick in population, aka lots of MA (and RI?) residents voting with their feet, fleeing taxachusettes and moving into the north country, or at least to d'other side of the bor-dere: bienvenue au new hampshire! (ayuh - just remembah tho: you have to take yer own trash to the dump ;)