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  • Taibbi on Sandy

    we've seen enough of Matt's cards to know he's a genuine investigative reporter, a muckraker and . . . a liberal, with all that entails . . . .

    Hurricane Sandy and the Myth of the Big Government-vs.-Small-Government Debate

    Taibblog

    by: Matt Taibbi

    President Barack Obama speaks as New Jersey Governor Chris Christie looks on as they visit a shelter for Hurricane Sandy victims in Brigantine, New Jersey, on October 31th, 2012.
    JEWEL SAMAD/AFP/Getty Images)

    Quite a shock the other day to look out my window in Jersey City, and see the Hudson River rushing over what used to be the street in front of my building. For nearly three days my dog and I played Robinson Crusoe and Friday, sleepily watching from our little apartment-island while we waited for hot water, cell service, the internet, even elevators to come back on line.

    When I finally got back on the internet and was able to read the news again, I saw that Hurricane Sandy, in addition to being the rare storm to live up to its televised hype, had turned into the last-minute curveball plot twist that always seems to pop up in presidential races.

    Some of those twists we hear about – like the sudden appearance of records from George W. Bush's 1976 drunk driving arrest in Maine – while others, like Dick Nixon's apparent secret negotiations with the Vietnamese in 1968, or the more-likely-mythical October Surprise deal involving Reagan and the Iran hostages in 1980, remain secrets until later on.

    But this massive hurricane is apparently turning into a boon for Barack Obama on a number of fronts. One, it's allowed him to be seen all over television taking charge and acting presidential, and has even allowed him to brandish bipartisan credentials through the curiously intense bromance that he has developed this week with our own New Jersey Governor Chris Christie (a Romney supporter who, somewhat mysteriously, has gone out of his way to praise the president this week).

    On a deeper level, though, the hurricane has seemingly made a powerful argument on Obama's behalf about the role of government in general. The media is casting this as a stark and simple dichotomy. Romney, the rhetoric goes, is on record as having favored cuts to disaster relief agencies like FEMA ("We cannot afford to do those things without jeopardizing the future for our kids," he said in a primary debate last year), while his running mate, Paul Ryan, has been even more hostile to FEMA ("When disaster-relief decisions are not made judiciously, limited resources are diverted away from communities that are truly in need," he said just last March).

    Obama, meanwhile, has reportedly embraced FEMA in the past, and is certainly doing so now, with his comments this past week seeming to argue in favor even of an increase in FEMA spending, noting the frequency of "these kinds of storms."
    The storm is also purportedly casting in a kinder light Obama's general attitude toward government, until now often described as an electoral weakness. Pre-Sandy, pundits usually raked the president over the coals for openly embracing the role of government in society during a time when anti-government sentiment is at an all-time high. In the first debate, for instance, his answer to a question about his view of the role of government was considered a dud:


    I also believe that government has the capacity — the federal government has the capacity to help open up opportunity and create ladders of opportunity and to create frameworks where the American people can succeed.



    It's this kind of language that's allowed opponents of Obama to cast him as the "redistributionist-in-Chief": a man who openly believes that government can help provide "ladders of opportunity." That language is particularly annoying to pure free-market ideologues, who have often claimed the "ladders of opportunity" phrase for themselves, but only in the context of their being provided by the private sector.

    Anyway, enter Hurricane Sandy. Suddenly, it seems that most of the mainstream press – as if speaking through one voice – has finally decided that the storm has settled the big-government-versus-small-government argument, with Obama coming out the clear winner. There were a number of online columns like the one by USA Today's Amanda Marcotte, who wrote that "Sandy Shows Why Romney's Wrong on FEMA," or by Catherine Poe at the Washington Times, who pitched in with "FEMA to the Rescue: Why Obama is Right and Romney Was Wrong."

    But more than a few outlets used the storm to make an even bigger case for government in general. Up north, for instance, the Globe and Mail decreed that "Superstorm Bolsters Obama's Big-Government Argument". But the more striking piece was the uncharacteristically brazen editorial in the New York Times, titled "A Big Storm Requires Big Government," in which the Times harshly criticized George Bush's cavalier attitude toward disaster relief in the years leading up to Katrina, and argued generally for the necessity of a broadly strong government.

    The Times headline was instantly mocked by both the Heritage Foundation, who called it "a shameless attempt to politicize Hurricane Sandy," and the Wall Street Journal ("A Big Storm Requires Big Bird"), which used the editorial as an opportunity to wittily attack the Grey Lady:


    Some people prepare for natural disasters by stocking up on food, water and batteries. At the New York Times, they stockpile tendentious ideological arguments.



    The editorialists at the Wall Street Journal have a lot of balls themselves calling out anyone else for mass-producing tendentious ideology, but that's another argument for another day. The point is that the storm has become a flash-point for a new media meme: Obama is for big government (which is suddenly a good thing), Romney is for small government (and wants to take rafts and blankets away from flood victims), and goodness gracious, aren't we lucky that we got to see such a clear, real-world demonstration of the important philosophical differences between these two candidates in the week before the election.
    The only problem with this new line of rhetoric is that it isn't really true. The almost certain reality is that we'll end up with a big (and perhaps even a rapidly-expanding) government no matter who gets elected. People seem to forget that this time four years ago, George W. Bush was winding down one of the most activist, expensive, intrusive presidencies in history, an eight-year period that saw a massive expansion in the size of the federal government. Almost exactly four years ago, this is what the conservative Washington Times wrote about the outgoing president:


    George W. Bush
    rode into Washington almost eight years ago astride the horse of smaller government. He will leave it this winter having overseen the biggest federal budget expansion since Franklin Delano Roosevelt seven decades ago.


    Bush, it is true, consistently expanded the size of the federal bureaucracies almost across the board during his eight years in office, greatly increasing the size of government just in terms of sheer numbers and volume of spending, but that wasn't all he did.

    People forget that he also took a major qualitative step forward in expanding the role of government, when in 2008 his Treasury Secretary, Hank Paulson, teamed up with then-Fed official and Paulson's future counterpart in the Obama administration, Tim Geithner, to design a series of financial bailouts and state-aided mergers. The bailout program that began under Bush cost trillions of dollars and left the state hopelessly and irrevocably involved in the insurance, banking and auto industries, among other things.
    But within a few years, that was forgotten. Forget about the myth that the Republican Party is sincerely interested in reducing the size of government: the real myth is that the American people are in favor of reducing the size of government. And that myth was alive and well again by the summer of 2010, in the runup to midterm elections. Back then, Slate columnist Anne Applebaum described the national self-deception this way:


    Americans on both the left and the right have, for the last decade, consistently voted for high-spending members of Congress and consistently supported ever-higher levels of government intervention and regulation at all levels of public life. As a result, the federal government expanded under George W. Bush's administration at a rate that was, at least until President Barack Obama came along, totally unprecedented in U.S. history.


    In the abstract, most Americans want a smaller and less intrusive government. In reality, what Americans really want is a government that spends less money on other people.

    Hurricane Sandy is a perfect, microcosmic example of America's attitude toward government. We have millions of people who, most of the year, are ready to bash anyone who accepts government aid as a parasitic welfare queen, but the instant the water level rises a few feet too high in their own neighborhoods, those same folks transform into little Roosevelts, full of plaudits for the benefits of a strong state.

    The truth is, nobody, be he rich or poor, wants his government services cut. Drive up and down route 128 outside Boston, you'll see a lot of affluent white people waving Romney signs, complaining about entitlement spending. But about four thousand percent of those same people working along the high-tech ring there are totally dependent on the Pentagon contracts that keep doors open at companies like Raytheon and General Dynamics.

    Here in the tri-state area, and especially in the lower Manhattan region I'm staring at out my window right now, you'll get much of the same – lots of whining now about deficit spending and the parasitical 47%, but also conspicuous silence a few years ago, when in one fell swoop, taxpayers had to spend about twice the amount of the annual federal budget just to save bonus seasons on Wall Street for the few thousand of our local assholes who nearly blew up the world economy.

    And a lot of those same parasite-bashing, Randian pure-market ideologues were in full pucker mode for all of this past summer, while they waited in frank desperation for the Fed to announce a third Quantitative Easing program – in which the Fed will henceforth inject $85 billion of raw, uncut welfare into the financial services industry's bloodstream every month.

    Programs like QE are always defended as being necessary to stimulate the economy in general, and who knows, maybe they are – but it's conspicuous that a crowd of people who normally hate "government spending" are suddenly overflowing with praise for the Fed's wisdom and logical explanations for why this massive pseudo-state intervention is necessary.

    The point is, we will end up with a big government no matter who wins next week's election, because neither Mitt Romney nor Barack Obama is supported by a coalition that has any interest in tightening its own belt. The only reason we're having this phony big-versus-small argument is because of yet another longstanding media deception, i.e. that the only people who actually receive government aid are the poor and the elderly and other such traditional "welfare"-seekers. Thus a politician who is in favor of cutting services to that particular crowd, like Mitt Romney, is inevitably described as favoring "small government," no matter what his spending plans are for everybody else.

    But everyone lives off the government teat to some degree – even (one might even say especially) the very rich who have been the core supporters of both the Bush presidency and Romney's campaign. Many are industrial leaders who would revolt tomorrow if their giant free R&D program known as the federal military budget were to be scaled back even a few percentage points. Mitt's buddies on Wall Street would cry without their bailouts and dozens of lucrative little-known subsidies (like the preposterous ability of certain banks to act as middlemen in transactions when the government lends money to itself).

    And if it's not outright bailouts or guarantees keeping the rich rich, it's selective regulation and carefully-carved-out protections from competition – like the bans on drug re-importation or pharmaceutical price negotiation for Medicare that are keeping the drug companies far richer than they would be, in the pure free-market paradise their CEOs probably espouse at dinner parties.

    The evolution of this whole antigovernment movement has been fascinating to watch. People who grew up in public schools, run straight to the embassy the instant they get a runny nose overseas, stuff burgers down their throats without worrying about E. Coli and sleep happily in planes they know have been inspected by the FAA (I regularly risked my life in Aeroflot liners for a decade and know the difference), can with straight faces make the argument that having to pay any taxes at all is tyranny. It's almost as if people feel the need to announce that they don't need any help with anything, ever – not even keeping bridges safe or drinking water clean.

    It's this weird national paranoia about being seen as needy, or labeled a parasite who needs government aid, that leads to lunacies like the idea that having a strong disaster-relief agency qualifies as a "big government" concept, when in fact it's just sensible. If everyone could just admit that government is a fact of life, we could probably do a much better job of fixing it and managing its costs. Instead, we have to play this silly game where millions of us pretend we're above it all, that we don't walk on regularly-cleaned streets or fly in protected skies. It shouldn't take a once-in-a-generation hurricane for Americans to admit they need the government occasionally, but that's apparently where we are.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...ebate-20121101

  • #2
    Re: Taibbi on Sandy

    Originally posted by don View Post
    The evolution of this whole antigovernment movement has been fascinating to watch. People who grew up in public schools, run straight to the embassy the instant they get a runny nose overseas, stuff burgers down their throats without worrying about E. Coli and sleep happily in planes they know have been inspected by the FAA (I regularly risked my life in Aeroflot liners for a decade and know the difference), can with straight faces make the argument that having to pay any taxes at all is tyranny. It's almost as if people feel the need to announce that they don't need any help with anything, ever – not even keeping bridges safe or drinking water clean.

    It's this weird national paranoia about being seen as needy, or labeled a parasite who needs government aid, that leads to lunacies like the idea that having a strong disaster-relief agency qualifies as a "big government" concept, when in fact it's just sensible. If everyone could just admit that government is a fact of life, we could probably do a much better job of fixing it and managing its costs. Instead, we have to play this silly game where millions of us pretend we're above it all, that we don't walk on regularly-cleaned streets or fly in protected skies. It shouldn't take a once-in-a-generation hurricane for Americans to admit they need the government occasionally, but that's apparently where we are.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...ebate-20121101
    Typical liberal horse-dunky; surprised at Taibbi for for trying to "never let a crisis go to waste", something he's been critial of.

    How to get from 1) we need the gov when a once in 50 yr disaster occurs (Sandy) to 2) all this complaining about the gov is too big should end - complete non-sequitur


    When I was younger, states/Govenors declaring "states of disaster" were much less commong.
    Now it's done as a matter of course for smaller and smaller issues just to get Fed money. Don't blame the states for this, but this symptom of big government, less state sovereignty is just another form of "it takes a Village (or Pillage)" depending on your persuasion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Taibbi on Sandy

      Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
      Typical liberal horse-dunky; surprised at Taibbi for for trying to "never let a crisis go to waste", something he's been critial of.

      How to get from 1) we need the gov when a once in 50 yr disaster occurs (Sandy) to 2) all this complaining about the gov is too big should end - complete non-sequitur
      My take as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Taibbi on Sandy

        Originally posted by vinoveri View Post

        How to get from 1) we need the gov when a once in 50 yr disaster occurs (Sandy) ...
        ever heard of katrina? how about andrew? tornadoes? california and southwest wildfires? guess not, huh. how about all those midwest farmers on the federal teat with the price supports and crop insurance for the recent, unprecedented drought? screw 'em all. just a bunch of whiners.... and those folks without health insurance? let 'em die, like those people shouted at a republican primary debate. suck it up, you're on your own, right?

        all this complaining about the gov is too big should end
        and he doesn't argue that all arguments about big gov't should end. he just says there's a role for gov't. if you walked or drove down a public road today, drank water that was tested for purity, ate food that passed federal inspection, you partook of gov't services. all taibbi says is that instead of arguing on grand ideological grounds, we should all accept that there's some role for gov't, and then work from that common understanding. less ideology and more practicality would be a big step forward.



        edit: iirc there were some huge floods in the upper midwest within recent memory. ahh... just the liberal media exaggerating again..
        Last edited by jk; November 03, 2012, 07:44 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Taibbi on Sandy

          Originally posted by jk View Post
          ever heard of katrina? how about andrew? tornadoes? california and southwest wildfires? guess not, huh. how about all those midwest farmers on the federal teat with the price supports and crop insurance for the recent, unprecedented drought? screw 'em all. just a bunch of whiners.... and those folks without health insurance? let 'em die, like those people shouted at a republican primary debate. suck it up, you're on your own, right?
          Straw man, jk. Most unlike you. I doubt vinoveri feels that way and you should know I don't. But Taibbi is definitely connecting legitimate functions of government with the complaints of conservatives about the smothering costs of the nanny state in an attempt to portray them all as ignorant Tea Baggers.


          Originally posted by jk View Post
          and he doesn't argue that all arguments about big gov't should end. he just says there's a role for gov't. if you walked or drove down a public road today, drank water that was tested for purity, ate food that passed federal inspection, you partook of gov't services. all taibbi says is that instead of arguing on grand ideological grounds, we should all accept that there's some role for gov't, and then work from that common understanding. less ideology and more practicality would be a big step forward...
          But he attempts to portray all objections to the enormous expansion of government at all levels as either (a) hypocrisy, as in "W's" huge expansion of government, or (b) selfish and stupid.

          "People who grew up in public schools, run straight to the embassy the instant they get a runny nose overseas, stuff burgers down their throats without worrying about E. Coli and sleep happily in planes they know have been inspected by the FAA (I regularly risked my life in Aeroflot liners for a decade and know the difference), can with straight faces make the argument that having to pay any taxes at all is tyranny. It's almost as if people feel the need to announce that they don't need any help with anything, ever – not even keeping bridges safe or drinking water clean."

          Then, almost unwittingly I'm sure, Taibbi actually makes an argument for smaller, less intrusive government since Big Guv serves those most able to buy it, the evil, selfish, god-awful rich:

          "And if it's not outright bailouts or guarantees keeping the rich rich, it's selective regulation and carefully-carved-out protections from competition – like the bans on drug re-importation or pharmaceutical price negotiation for Medicare that are keeping the drug companies far richer than they would be, in the pure free-market paradise their CEOs probably espouse at dinner parties."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Taibbi on Sandy

            FEMA not doing well:

            http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2012/11/03/obama-refuses-answer-storm-victims-frustrations/


            http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...elivery-Monday

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Taibbi on Sandy

              Taibbi's main thesis can be summarized in these 3 paragraphs below from the article. And he is correct. Unfortunately what will happen is that the rich, powerful, and connected will feed at the government's teets far more and far longer than the poor, elderly, and ethnic minorities. They lead the charge to cut Social Security and social welfare programs for the poor (Koch brothers, Pete Peterson, Simpson-Bowles, etc., etc.) then demand that the government bail them out when Wall Street banks and hedge funds where much of the wealth resides, start to go under (2008). And nobody feeds at the government teets like defense and military contracters. (When was the last time continental U.S. was invaded? Do we really need all those 700 + military bases overseas?)

              I believe JK made some valid points.

              "In the abstract, most Americans want a smaller and less intrusive government. In reality, what Americans really want is a government that spends less money on other people.

              Hurricane Sandy is a perfect, microcosmic example of America's attitude toward government. We have millions of people who, most of the year, are ready to bash anyone who accepts government aid as a parasitic welfare queen, but the instant the water level rises a few feet too high in their own neighborhoods, those same folks transform into little Roosevelts, full of plaudits for the benefits of a strong state.

              The truth is, nobody, be he rich or poor, wants his government services cut. Drive up and down route 128 outside Boston, you'll see a lot of affluent white people waving Romney signs, complaining about entitlement spending. But about four thousand percent of those same people working along the high-tech ring there are totally dependent on the Pentagon contracts that keep doors open at companies like Raytheon and General Dynamics"

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                "In the abstract, most Americans want a smaller and less intrusive government. In reality, what Americans really want is a government that spends less money on other people."

                I want both. The only thing I get from government is highways, law enforcement, [lousy] public schools, etc. - and that's what everyone else gets.
                I receive no government pension, no Social Security - only a tax bill. This country simply cannot afford to pay for everything that every voter wants.

                "Hurricane Sandy is a perfect, microcosmic example of America's attitude toward government. We have millions of people who, most of the year, are ready to bash anyone who accepts government aid as a parasitic welfare queen, but the instant the water level rises a few feet too high in their own neighborhoods, those same folks transform into little Roosevelts, full of plaudits for the benefits of a strong state."

                Disaster relief is a legitimate function of government and I don't view recipients as "welfare queens". I do, however, view bankers and brokers who are bailed out on taxpayer funds as welfare queens, and farmers who are paid not to farm, unions who receive stock that should belong to the bondholders of their employers, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, as "on the dole".

                "The truth is, nobody, be he rich or poor, wants his government services cut. Drive up and down route 128 outside Boston, you'll see a lot of affluent white people waving Romney signs, complaining about entitlement spending. But about four thousand percent of those same people working along the high-tech ring there are totally dependent on the Pentagon contracts that keep doors open at companies like Raytheon and General Dynamics"

                Now I absolutely agree with this. But it is going to be cut - either through a workable congress that compromises enough to avoid disaster or by a marketplace that administers disaster. And most of the solution is going to be spending cuts because there aren't enough "rich people" to tax in order to bring it under control. But you never hear any of that from Taibbi - only finger pointing at the people who aren't part of his favored political constituency.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                  Originally posted by Raz View Post
                  "In the abstract, most Americans want a smaller and less intrusive government. In reality, what Americans really want is a government that spends less money on other people."

                  I want both. The only thing I get from government is highways, law enforcement, [lousy] public schools, etc. - and that's what everyone else gets.
                  I receive no government pension, no Social Security - only a tax bill. This country simply cannot afford to pay for everything that every voter wants.

                  "Hurricane Sandy is a perfect, microcosmic example of America's attitude toward government. We have millions of people who, most of the year, are ready to bash anyone who accepts government aid as a parasitic welfare queen, but the instant the water level rises a few feet too high in their own neighborhoods, those same folks transform into little Roosevelts, full of plaudits for the benefits of a strong state."

                  Disaster relief is a legitimate function of government and I don't view recipients as "welfare queens". I do, however, view bankers and brokers who are bailed out on taxpayer funds as welfare queens, and farmers who are paid not to farm, unions who receive stock that should belong to the bondholders of their employers, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, as "on the dole".

                  "The truth is, nobody, be he rich or poor, wants his government services cut. Drive up and down route 128 outside Boston, you'll see a lot of affluent white people waving Romney signs, complaining about entitlement spending. But about four thousand percent of those same people working along the high-tech ring there are totally dependent on the Pentagon contracts that keep doors open at companies like Raytheon and General Dynamics"

                  Now I absolutely agree with this. But it is going to be cut - either through a workable congress that compromises enough to avoid disaster or by a marketplace that administers disaster. And most of the solution is going to be spending cuts because there aren't enough "rich people" to tax in order to bring it under control. But you never hear any of that from Taibbi - only finger pointing at the people who aren't part of his favored political constituency.
                  Frankly, I think both of you are thinking of this in the wrong way. In one version, middle class people are ungrateful for their military spending government contractor jobs. In the other, the budget deficit is too large, and so to set the market to its "natural state," we all should suffer.

                  In reality, the defense department is the single US jobs program, and has been for decades. Japan has MITI. China has MIITI. Germany has the input turnover tax.

                  In the end of the day, every first world country in our "globalized" world hangs on to a protectionist mechanism to maintain jobs.

                  Denying this is foolish. Abolishing it is foolish (unless everyone else abolishes it at the same time, which they won't).

                  Let's not act like the other major producers in the economy play by fair rules. And let's not act like the US does either.

                  The US's main lever is the dollar. We can deficit spend dirt cheap. That's our tribute for empire.

                  Now, it may be waning. It may be going away. But cutting off our noses to spite our faces will do nothing. If we really want to cut the deficit, we have to get our trade deals straight first. Otherwise, we're racing to the bottom with no plan.

                  Trade is a battle. Business is a battle. Naive people want to deny this.

                  There is no free market. Only bilateral and multilateral trade deals negotiated in hundred to thousand page agreements, and ratified by governments or the WTO with governments.

                  Chronic trade deficits should have boiler-plate language triggering tariffs or other mechanisms to balance the system.

                  Since they do not, the US runs trade deficits, then government deficits, and pays negative interest rates back.

                  That's the price of doing business to the other schmucks.

                  But don't suggest we flush our two advantages (classifying industry to keep it in-country and practically free credit) without getting something back in return.

                  One must be hard-headed about these things. Unless one wishes to be a weak, wishy-washy leader without his/her country's best interests at heart.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                    Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                    Frankly, I think both of you are thinking of this in the wrong way. In one version, middle class people are ungrateful for their military spending government contractor jobs. In the other, the budget deficit is too large, and so to set the market to its "natural state," we all should suffer.

                    In reality, the defense department is the single US jobs program, and has been for decades. Japan has MITI. China has MIITI. Germany has the input turnover tax.

                    In the end of the day, every first world country in our "globalized" world hangs on to a protectionist mechanism to maintain jobs.

                    Denying this is foolish. Abolishing it is foolish (unless everyone else abolishes it at the same time, which they won't).

                    Let's not act like the other major producers in the economy play by fair rules. And let's not act like the US does either.

                    The US's main lever is the dollar. We can deficit spend dirt cheap. That's our tribute for empire.

                    Now, it may be waning. It may be going away. But cutting off our noses to spite our faces will do nothing. If we really want to cut the deficit, we have to get our trade deals straight first. Otherwise, we're racing to the bottom with no plan.

                    Trade is a battle. Business is a battle. Naive people want to deny this.

                    There is no free market. Only bilateral and multilateral trade deals negotiated in hundred to thousand page agreements, and ratified by governments or the WTO with governments.

                    Chronic trade deficits should have boiler-plate language triggering tariffs or other mechanisms to balance the system.

                    Since they do not, the US runs trade deficits, then government deficits, and pays negative interest rates back.

                    That's the price of doing business to the other schmucks.

                    But don't suggest we flush our two advantages (classifying industry to keep it in-country and practically free credit) without getting something back in return.

                    One must be hard-headed about these things. Unless one wishes to be a weak, wishy-washy leader without his/her country's best interests at heart.


                    Short-listed for Post of the Year.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                      Originally posted by jk View Post
                      ever heard of katrina? how about andrew? tornadoes? california and southwest wildfires? guess not, huh. how about all those midwest farmers on the federal teat with the price supports and crop insurance for the recent, unprecedented drought? screw 'em all. just a bunch of whiners.... and those folks without health insurance? let 'em die, like those people shouted at a republican primary debate. suck it up, you're on your own, right?



                      and he doesn't argue that all arguments about big gov't should end. he just says there's a role for gov't. if you walked or drove down a public road today, drank water that was tested for purity, ate food that passed federal inspection, you partook of gov't services. all taibbi says is that instead of arguing on grand ideological grounds, we should all accept that there's some role for gov't, and then work from that common understanding. less ideology and more practicality would be a big step forward.



                      edit: iirc there were some huge floods in the upper midwest within recent memory. ahh... just the liberal media exaggerating again..
                      Obviously hit a nerve. You are apparently an apologist for big gov, OK. Different strokes for different folks.

                      I'm against centralized control. Subsidiarity and Solidarity should be the core governing principles in any economic system.

                      Yes, we should take care of each other, I believe we agree on that. Big gov leads to wasteful bureacracies, corruption, and fraud. Intention is one thing, implementation another. Where is the line drawn at who gets Fed help vs local resources, and who decides?

                      Took me 10 seconds to find this times article from last week ... where there is one cockroach ... and where there is smoke.
                      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/us...ew-jersey.html
                      "A report issued last year by the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security estimated that at least $643 million had been wrongly distributed to victims of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005 — given to 160,000 households — but still had not been recouped by the agency, even though it was aware of the apparent payment mistakes or fraud.
                      The investigators found that FEMA was often too focused on simply giving out money and not on thoroughly checking to make sure the applicants had actually suffered as a result of the storm. As a result, checks have gone to owners of vacant lots, and rental assistance has been sent to families living in FEMA trailers"
                      Last edited by vinoveri; November 04, 2012, 01:59 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                        Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
                        Obviously hit a nerve. You are apparently an apologist for big gov, OK. Different strokes for different folks.

                        I'm against centralized control. Subsidiarity and Solidarity should be the core governing principles in any economic system.

                        Yes, we should take care of each other, I believe we agree on that. Big gov leads to wasteful bureacracies, corruption, and fraud. Intention is one thing, implementation another. Where is the line drawn at who gets Fed help vs local resources, and who decides?

                        Took me 10 seconds to find this times article from last week ... where there is one cockroach ... and where there is smoke.
                        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/31/us...ew-jersey.html
                        "A report issued last year by the inspector general of the Department of Homeland Security estimated that at least $643 million had been wrongly distributed to victims of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005 — given to 160,000 households — but still had not been recouped by the agency, even though it was aware of the apparent payment mistakes or fraud.
                        The investigators found that FEMA was often too focused on simply giving out money and not on thoroughly checking to make sure the applicants had actually suffered as a result of the storm. As a result, checks have gone to owners of vacant lots, and rental assistance has been sent to families living in FEMA trailers"
                        no doubt there's a lot of waste and inefficiency, as in any beaurocratic organization, including ones which are privately owned. what hit a nerve was your "once in 50 years" remark when i could, offhand, remember so many other disasters in recent years in which federal aid was important in helping victims.

                        romney was of course caught out recently for his waffling dance around whether he thought we should abolish fema- i think it's called throwing out the baby with the bath water. my problem is the ideological war which obscures rational analysis.

                        and btw, i don't accept that making a case for the existence of fema makes me "an apologist for big gov." does it have to be all one way or all the other? i think THAT kind of thinking is a big part of our problem.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                          Originally posted by jk View Post
                          no doubt there's a lot of waste and inefficiency, as in any beaurocratic organization, including ones which are privately owned. what hit a nerve was your "once in 50 years" remark when i could, offhand, remember so many other disasters in recent years in which federal aid was important in helping victims.

                          romney was of course caught out recently for his waffling dance around whether he thought we should abolish fema- i think it's called throwing out the baby with the bath water. my problem is the ideological war which obscures rational analysis.

                          and btw, i don't accept that making a case for the existence of fema makes me "an apologist for big gov." does it have to be all one way or all the other? i think THAT kind of thinking is a big part of our problem.
                          I share that problem but from a different perspective. It's fairly clear to me, and based on any rational view of how gov has grown in the past generation, that the idealogy of big gov has had and continues to have the upper hand and its growth continues to accelerate. I'm sure there is group of folks who desire even larger gov, perhaps you are one. I don't believe the Nanny state is a good thing. I don't think having a view of stopping/slowing/reversing the growth and power of unelected bureacracies can be viewed as an irrational idealogy.

                          I will say that the financial crisis has shown me the magnitude of the looting that the big gov-big bus-banking system enables by the upper classes.

                          What perplexes me now is why folks are about to re-elect Obama? I voted for Paul in 2008 b/c I was fed up with the 2-party bought and paid for system. When Obama won, I hoped he might bring the change he promised with respect to financial reform and deficit control.

                          Of course, nothing happened, the moneyed interests continue to be served, and yet we are going to reelect him. Not saying Romney's going to fix it either, but what is the calculus in voting for Obama?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                            Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                            Frankly, I think both of you are thinking of this in the wrong way. In one version, middle class people are ungrateful for their military spending government contractor jobs. In the other, the budget deficit is too large, and so to set the market to its "natural state," we all should suffer.

                            In reality, the defense department is the single US jobs program, and has been for decades. Japan has MITI. China has MIITI. Germany has the input turnover tax.

                            In the end of the day, every first world country in our "globalized" world hangs on to a protectionist mechanism to maintain jobs.

                            Denying this is foolish. Abolishing it is foolish (unless everyone else abolishes it at the same time, which they won't).

                            Let's not act like the other major producers in the economy play by fair rules. And let's not act like the US does either.

                            The US's main lever is the dollar. We can deficit spend dirt cheap. That's our tribute for empire.

                            Now, it may be waning. It may be going away. But cutting off our noses to spite our faces will do nothing. If we really want to cut the deficit, we have to get our trade deals straight first. Otherwise, we're racing to the bottom with no plan.

                            Trade is a battle. Business is a battle. Naive people want to deny this.

                            There is no free market. Only bilateral and multilateral trade deals negotiated in hundred to thousand page agreements, and ratified by governments or the WTO with governments.

                            Chronic trade deficits should have boiler-plate language triggering tariffs or other mechanisms to balance the system.

                            Since they do not, the US runs trade deficits, then government deficits, and pays negative interest rates back.

                            That's the price of doing business to the other schmucks.

                            But don't suggest we flush our two advantages (classifying industry to keep it in-country and practically free credit) without getting something back in return.

                            One must be hard-headed about these things. Unless one wishes to be a weak, wishy-washy leader without his/her country's best interests at heart.
                            Thank you once again for cutting to the chase. I agree with your conclusions.

                            And I don't totally disagree with Taibbi. He's clearly to the Left, but then I've never heard him claim total objectivity and bias-free opinion - unlike so many in the present "media".

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Taibbi on Sandy

                              Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
                              ... I don't think having a view of stopping/slowing/reversing the growth and power of unelected bureacracies can be viewed as an irrational idealogy.

                              I will say that the financial crisis has shown me the magnitude of the looting that the big gov-big bus-banking system enables by the upper classes.

                              What perplexes me now is why folks are about to re-elect Obama? I voted for Paul in 2008 b/c I was fed up with the 2-party bought and paid for system. When Obama won, I hoped he might bring the change he promised with respect to financial reform and deficit control.

                              Of course, nothing happened, the moneyed interests continue to be served, and yet we are going to reelect him. Not saying Romney's going to fix it either, but what is the calculus in voting for Obama?
                              I'm voting Third Party.

                              I can understand someone voting for Romney even though I won't. What I cannot understand is the rationale for voting to re-elect Obama.

                              Comment

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