Wasting money on public education

[flintlock]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Seniority based system, rather than meritocracy, is the biggest problem in the American public education system. I had a high school AP history teacher who graded tests based on length of essay, which was very different from my AP bio teacher who emphasized on key-words and understanding of concepts. So first semester, I worked my butt-off but kept on getting Bs on exams; second semester, I started BSing long essays with no content and got As. I capped the 2nd semester by writing into my final exam essay, that the teacher was crappy and worthless, and still got an A. This was not some inner-city school, it's one of the top schools in one of the richer areas of California... In contrast, my little sister's music teacher who she absolutely loves because of his creativity and passion, keeps on getting pink-slips at the end of each school year due to budget cuts, and finally was told not to come back after 3 re-hires...

So until there's some reform in the teaching system, I'm voting no on all the tax increases in the coming California election. Caving in to CalPERS will do more harm than good in the long term.

Now, speaking of inefficiencies in the public education system, there was an NPR report of the NY education system where the "bad teachers" gets sent to a location to do nothing all day long, literally, until retirement at which time they can collect nice pensions instead of getting fired for wrong-doings. That's truly mind boggling...

My HS age kids continually complain about how different teachers grade. Recently they were required to do a science project at home. It was of such complexity that almost all kids required help from a parent. ( required tools, cutting wood, etc. ) like the scout's pine wood derby, the best ones end up being made by the dads. Well after watching two days of fruitless attempts by my kids to create their own, and time running out, I drew up a quick design for them and did some of the cuts and drillling. They produced two identical projects. Two different teachers. One got a B, one a D. Go figure!

[Ghent12]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Seniority based system, rather than meritocracy, is the biggest problem in the American public education system.

That certainly strikes very close to the heart of the matter. The real problem, from the perspective of the children who go through the public education system, is that both they and their parents are not in real control of the products they receive. There are too few meaningful incentives to have a "successful" (by common standards/metrics) public school system because the customers are divorced from control over the process.

There isn't a way to correct the system and still have it be public education. Something has got to give, or else we will always have some permutation of the current system. It's not like this is any secret--there are good schools and very, very bad schools, and parents very often know which is which. Parents and students don't have nearly as much control over that process as they do over anything they purchase, for example. At least when you're getting screwed by AT&T, you have the choice to not re-up your contract with them. The road to education reform is paved with incentives and founded upon a solid understanding of most basic laws from the supreme social science. Until the industry of public education is meaningfully held accountable by its customers and less beholden to other interests, nothing that changes can be called real reform.

[tastymannatees]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Originally Posted by dcarrigg

You can draw the conclusion that scores overall do not seem to be getting worse with time. That's the main reason I threw it in there. We tend to have a Jeremiad complex in this country where we assume the schools all went to hell after the boomers got out of them, and all schools were better in the past. That doesn't look like the case here.

I do not know what planet you people are from our daughter from day one we placed in a private catholic grade school as the local schools here in CT have such a horrible reputation borne by the fact that the lowest performers in her class went on to the local high school and are all in AP classes and they all get A's.

My daughter while in grade school took the standardized Iowa tests and scored consistently in the high 90's, but note here that the weekend before the Iowa's the teacher told the kids it would be a good idea if they learned how to do division before the test!! and this was with the best private education we could afford at 10K a year.

So my daughter did well on the standardized Iowa tests and scored well enough (96 per cent) on the catholic high school entrance exam to qualify for a scholarship, well and good however a couple of years later we are prepping for SAT's and over the course of the last year we find out she was never taught fractions, or basics like Roman numerals, was never taught basic grammar, metric system or that water boils at 212F and the list goes on none of which was revealed through standardized testing.

Her high teachers recently had a meeting the subject discussed was that they were doing too much work and that the kids should be teaching themselves more......My daughter is self teaching calculus and her English teacher misspells many words on her handouts and in her comments while grading papers she does not correct for grammar. She is loaded down with homework, assigned busy work art projects and for 15K a year this is light years ahead of the local public schools despite it's draw backs.

My daughter is second in her class of 225 and first round of PSAT's scored 1750 after much work and expense plugging the holes in her education her latest score is pushing 2200. Her education has been an ongoing nightmare and we have inefficiently paid for it multiple times through property taxes, tuition fees, home schooling, tutoring.

This issue is just not local, my friends wife teaches at the first grade level in Greenwich CT. argubly one of the richest communities in the country she notes that they do not teach grammar anymore and laments on the lack of education kids are getting these days .

Bottom line if you want your child to get a good education these days is for the parent to take an active role so they can hit their potential.

[Ghent12]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Bottom line if you want your child to get a good education these days is for the parent to take an active role so they can hit their potential.

That is absolutely true. Parents are the prime driver of their child's education, followed closely by the child, and then a long distance away come the teachers, the school environment, and everything else.

If parents are not concerned about their child's education (measured by actions they take, not increased loudness at PTA or school board meetings, etc.), then the child is on the fast track to perpetually low standards of living. If the parents don't care enough to actually do something real for the child's education (again measured by actions, like teaching them things or directing them to those who will), then the only hope the child has of getting educated is to take it upon themselves. Far too much emphasis is placed upon the teachers and the quality of teachers when it comes to education, though that is certainly an appropriate topic in general.

Your report from the front lines of public/private education is quite troubling, tastymannatees, but it seems you already have a good handle on what is really needed for your daughter to succeed. I hope you continue to share that with every parent you can; it's a message that needs to get out loud and clear.

[shiny!]

Re: Wasting money on public education

One of the best things a parent can do for their child is READ. Read to the child when they're little. Have plenty of books and magazines in the house, and emphasize the value of reading every day. Make sure your children can read and enjoy reading. Turn off the (*^$(_#)&_^@$ TV and video games and READ. If a child can read and is self-motivated to learn, they can do just about anything.

[flintlock]

Re: Wasting money on public education

That is absolutely true. Parents are the prime driver of their child's education, followed closely by the child, and then a long distance away come the teachers, the school environment, and everything else.

If parents are not concerned about their child's education (measured by actions they take, not increased loudness at PTA or school board meetings, etc.), then the child is on the fast track to perpetually low standards of living. If the parents don't care enough to actually do something real for the child's education (again measured by actions, like teaching them things or directing them to those who will), then the only hope the child has of getting educated is to take it upon themselves. Far too much emphasis is placed upon the teachers and the quality of teachers when it comes to education, though that is certainly an appropriate topic in general.

Your report from the front lines of public/private education is quite troubling, tastymannatees, but it seems you already have a good handle on what is really needed for your daughter to succeed. I hope you continue to share that with every parent you can; it's a message that needs to get out loud and clear.

x2. Very simple to look at the level of the parents involvement and see the results. Its a major factor. I have to laugh at people arguing about teacher quality especially when teaching the lower grades. Come on people, its reading and basic math. You dont need Albert Einstein. Someone who actually cares is probably more relevant than any particular expertise. But no one will ever care more about your child than you will so find the time and get involved. Kids need this more than any material bs you can buy them. So parents need to quit using the excuse they are too busy working. It doesnt always take so much time or money, rather its about placing the correct emphasis on learning .

[BK]

Re: Wasting money on public education

+1 My wife has read with my child every day! The result is a child who loves reading, speaks well , and seems to grasp complex concepts.
Parents are WAY more important than teachers - when will everyone understand this.......... even the most dedicated and professional teacher is a mercenary - take away the salary and they are not likely to be interested in teaching your child or their future.

[shiny!]

Re: Wasting money on public education

+1 My wife has read with my child every day! The result is a child who loves reading, speaks well , and seems to grasp complex concepts.
Parents are WAY more important than teachers - when will everyone understand this.......... even the most dedicated and professional teacher is a mercenary - take away the salary and they are not likely to be interested in teaching your child or their future.

Good for you guys!

Teaching is a calling, like nursing. For people who just want to make money, there are much easier, more lucrative ways to go about it than going into student loan debt to get a degree in one of the most underpaid, stressful fields there is. People who go into teaching thinking it'll be an easy buck don't last long.

Take away their salaries and the most dedicated teachers- the ones with the calling- would still be interested in teaching your children. They just wouldn't be able to afford to because they've got bills to pay, too. So your point stands: parents are their childrens' most important teachers. Your kids are watching everything you do.

[BK]

Re: Wasting money on public education

shiny,
Re: Most Teachers teach as a calling...

I think its a bunch of B/S created by Unions. A little background of how I formed this opinion is the my father. my mother, two aunts, a grandmother. a grandfather, and one sister were/are teachers. Teaching was the best job in town in terms of status, pay, reliable pension, short hours, and summers off(185 days a year- what a great gig).

I do believe the world is full of gifted teachers, but most of time they aren't given that title. Consider the teaching work that EJ does with itulip or I often think of a tennis teacher who teaches my child - although she is a gifted teacher she is not part of a Union or will not be receiving a generous Pension.

My schooling exposed me to lots of teachers who were just there for the money, its human nature and to expect more from teachers is unreasonable.

I hope I don't offend you with my commentary, but the massive education lobby has had its influenced and distorted our views of these professionals we call teachers. Teacher salaries and benefits are bankrupting communities on the East and West coast, and place an unfair financial burden of high property taxes on American families.

[shiny!]

Re: Wasting money on public education

shiny,
Re: Most Teachers teach as a calling...

I think its a bunch of B/S created by Unions. A little background of how I formed this opinion is the my father. my mother, two aunts, a grandmother. a grandfather, and one sister were/are teachers. Teaching was the best job in town in terms of status, pay, reliable pension, short hours, and summers off(185 days a year- what a great gig).

I do believe the world is full of gifted teachers, but most of time they aren't given that title. Consider the teaching work that EJ does with itulip or I often think of a tennis teacher who teaches my child - although she is a gifted teacher she is not part of a Union or will not be receiving a generous Pension.

My schooling exposed me to lots of teachers who were just there for the money, its human nature and to expect more from teachers is unreasonable.

I hope I don't offend you with my commentary, but the massive education lobby has had its influenced and distorted our views of these professionals we call teachers. Teacher salaries and benefits are bankrupting communities on the East and West coast, and place an unfair financial burden of high property taxes on American families.

No offense taken, as we are each entitled to our own opinions. I base mine not on anything coming from the NEA but from the teachers I've known: my late husband, his friends and co-workers.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Adding more education in an attempt to drive it past the natural rate of intelligence is not too bright. What is frightening about this trend is that while it was useful to my master to learn how to roll over, sit up and play dead in obedience school, I learned the most worth while things in my free time.

[flintlock]

Re: Wasting money on public education

shiny,
Re: Most Teachers teach as a calling...

I think its a bunch of B/S created by Unions. A little background of how I formed this opinion is the my father. my mother, two aunts, a grandmother. a grandfather, and one sister were/are teachers. Teaching was the best job in town in terms of status, pay, reliable pension, short hours, and summers off(185 days a year- what a great gig).

I do believe the world is full of gifted teachers, but most of time they aren't given that title. Consider the teaching work that EJ does with itulip or I often think of a tennis teacher who teaches my child - although she is a gifted teacher she is not part of a Union or will not be receiving a generous Pension.

My schooling exposed me to lots of teachers who were just there for the money, its human nature and to expect more from teachers is unreasonable.

I hope I don't offend you with my commentary, but the massive education lobby has had its influenced and distorted our views of these professionals we call teachers. Teacher salaries and benefits are bankrupting communities on the East and West coast, and place an unfair financial burden of high property taxes on American families.

I have to agree. The image some want to portray is of the martyr teacher, sacrificing wealth and personal ambition for the love of the cause. While this may apply to a few, its really just like any other job. You find something you can do, you may even like doing it, but ultimately you do the job because it fulfills some need you have. Be it financial, professional, spiritual or whatever. If a teacher seriously needed more money and could get it working in another field, its a good bet they are already doing that. Others either dont have a financial priority or simply can't do better. All jobs have trade offs and most are in their chosen profession because its where they have found their wants and needs and abilities meet. My wife teaches btw😜

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Wasting money on public education

IMHO, there are two root reasons that the public schools are struggling as much as they are.

One is the change in demographics in the country. We're getting stupider, "Idiocracy"-style. All the way back in 1970 (according to the census), "unskilled and skilled whites had on average 3.7 and 2.3 children, respectively, whereas the corresponding numbers for blacks were 5.4 and 1.9." (per William Shockley). If the stupidest people have been having two or three times as many children as the smartest people, it doesn't take many generations (especially when a generation might be 16 years for the stupidest and 35 years for the smartest) for the country to get dumber. And, as no one seems to like to talk about, we're importing millions of new "immigrants" each year from low-IQ countries, who in turn tend to have more children than we natives.

On top of the growing population of idiots, the 1960s generation has succeeded in destroying just about all of the strict social norms that in the past helped control the impulses and behaviors of the stupider fraction of the population. Religious and social norms prohibiting pre-marital sex and out-of-wedlock birth are essentially gone. Simple people need strong, simple rules to help them do what is right. But nowadays it's all "do what feels good" and "don't be judgmental". The result is a growing population of morons who have no social boundaries to fence in their raging ids.

The schools and the well-meaning liberals who've been running them for 50 years are probably doing about the best they can, but fundamentally this is a problem that can't be solved by new education initiatives. You have morons giving birth to five or six more morons by five or six different moron male "baby-daddies", and no regulation or program or initiative or standard or white paper or blue ribbon commission etc etc etc is going to change the raw fact that the quality of the human material being fed into the school systems is dropping, generation by generation.

I don't know what the answer is; there's no obvious, pleasant solution. The problem is that stupid people behave irresponsibly unless controlled by strict, ingrained social norms, and a very common stupid behavior is to copulate without regard for whether it produces children or whether the children can be supported. It would seem that this will either ultimately result in social collapse and starvation, totalitarian reproductive controls, or some miraculous return to strict social norms and elimination of the entitlement mentality.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wasting money on public education

I do not know what planet you people are from

I come from the planet where my parents were high-school and upholstery-school educated respectively. My grandparents were immigrants, and not formally educated. I lived with them then on my own and with fosters for the latter years of my education. I still like to think that I ended up well.

our daughter from day one we placed in a private catholic grade school as the local schools here in CT have such a horrible reputation borne by the fact that the lowest performers in her class went on to the local high school and are all in AP classes and they all get A's.

My daughter while in grade school took the standardized Iowa tests and scored consistently in the high 90's, but note here that the weekend before the Iowa's the teacher told the kids it would be a good idea if they learned how to do division before the test!! and this was with the best private education we could afford at 10K a year.

I'm sorry it cost so much. Back in the day, the grey nuns provided day care for me for free. I learned to knit there, actually, a rare skill for a boy built like a lineman. But the nuns took care of poor folk, and taught me well. Actually, anyone from my age group growing up in my neighborhood knew about the free (or dirt cheap for those who could afford it) nun daycare. There is no such thing now.

So my daughter did well on the standardized Iowa tests and scored well enough (96 per cent) on the catholic high school entrance exam to qualify for a scholarship, well and good however a couple of years later we are prepping for SAT's and over the course of the last year we find out she was never taught fractions, or basics like Roman numerals, was never taught basic grammar, metric system or that water boils at 212F and the list goes on none of which was revealed through standardized testing.

Standardized testing is imperfect. I don't know who would argue this. Parents and teachers' unions can agree here.

But if your daughter was not taught grammar, there is a problem. Run-on sentences are not good. Neither is passive voice.

When I was of high school age, the Xavarian monks provided me with a free private 4-year education (provided I work in the kitchen). I went to public school before that. The transition was hard. They took a letter grade off of every paper for each instance of passive voice they found. My writing has become far more colloquial since then. But I did learn well. I'm sorry that your daughter's Catholic education isn't up to it. Because, I probably didn't deserve the fantastic quality of education the Church offered me. I got it simply because I was capable, I worked hard, I was broke, and I was a hard-luck story. Again, I don't think that this exists for kids now. If it does, the process is much more formalized, and probably leaves many more kids behind.

Her high teachers recently had a meeting the subject discussed was that they were doing too much work and that the kids should be teaching themselves more......My daughter is self teaching calculus and her English teacher misspells many words on her handouts and in her comments while grading papers she does not correct for grammar. She is loaded down with homework, assigned busy work art projects and for 15K a year this is light years ahead of the local public schools despite it's draw backs.

My daughter is second in her class of 225 and first round of PSAT's scored 1750 after much work and expense plugging the holes in her education her latest score is pushing 2200. Her education has been an ongoing nightmare and we have inefficiently paid for it multiple times through property taxes, tuition fees, home schooling, tutoring.

This issue is just not local, my friends wife teaches at the first grade level in Greenwich CT. argubly one of the richest communities in the country she notes that they do not teach grammar anymore and laments on the lack of education kids are getting these days .

Bottom line if you want your child to get a good education these days is for the parent to take an active role so they can hit their potential.

Maybe parents are everthing. It's probably true for most kids. I didn't have that luxury. But I didn't end up dumb and broke either. Maybe it's actually a combination. My mother was 18 when she had me. She wasn't ready. I was lucky to have my grandfolks and the Church. But I think that if a kid shows promise and is around the right people, they will do their best to offer opportunities to him/her.

I suppose my ultimate point is that it's not all just parental involvement. If it were, quite frankly, I'd be incapable of writing coherent posts here. It might just actually take a village, as cliche as that is. I wish I had the type of parent you are. But it is not all there is to childhood intelligence and understanding. I'm sure of that.

[BK]

Re: Wasting money on public education

flintlock,
I believe the Union Teachers have done their work so well that the average man or woman doesn't understand basic (important) mathematical concepts like the power of compounding. The wide spread ignorance of math is demonstrated by how many don't get alarmed by 3-5% annual increases in property taxes. There isn't any coverage of fractional reserve banking or what is money.

Teacher salaries on the coasts and large cities are so good you will be hard pressed to find a teacher painting, landscaping, or working for a summer camp to make ends meet.

Regards.