Wasting money on public education

[vt]

Re: Wasting money on public education

My grandaughter's kindergarten class of 20 has 2 full time teachers. A prime example of over staffing. Normal kids not special needs.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Two full time teachers is over staffing, but kindergartens need two adults. It's usually one teacher, one aid. Anything less is asking for it.

[flintlock]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Two full time teachers is over staffing, but kindergartens need two adults. It's usually one teacher, one aid. Anything less is asking for it.

I agree!

As far as special ed, I know a little about this subject because my wife is a special ed teacher at an elementary school. Some of these kids probably don't belong in an elementary school setting. Last year they needed 3 teachers for only 4 or 5 students. Due to budget cuts its now two teachers for 6 students. At times they are more like prison guards than teachers. They always seem to get one or two problem kids who are frankly raving lunatics, violent to teachers and other students, spitting, clawing, screaming, etc. They need the extra teacher because the kids have to be watched every minute all day. Its exhausting. My wife can't even take a bathroom break some days. A few of these kids will literally try to kill someone or hurt themselves if you turn your back for a minute, or they make a break for the door and run away. My wife comes home with bruises and cuts almost every week. And this is in an affluent area, not some bad neighborhood. Wealthy parents drop off the kid and then complain why the school hasn't taught the kid to read and potty trained him, as if they have no responsibilities. God forbid they hire extra help themselves or put the kid in a proper facility to handle them. No, its now seen as the government's problem to fix. The government dumps it on the schools. Not all parents are like that of course, but the schools spend a fortune fighting legal and other battles with a few bad apples. Perhaps these severe types and the schools would be better served in an institution more appropriate for their disability.

Some of these parents are in denial about the kids condition in general. They literally come in to discuss some of these severely damaged kids as if they are just a little slow, or merely having a bad day every now and then. One condescending woman would come in and "teach" the teachers how to spoon feed her child. " You have to praise him" she'll say. They have learned that if they label the kid a certain way, they can keep them in school and avoid expensive extra curricular care they would otherwise require. Its basically daycare, and I don't really have a problem with that. But like most problems with schools, a lot of the problem starts with the parents and it only takes a few to make things worse.

This attempt to "mainstream" some of the worst kids is expensive and disruptive at times. Something tells me when you have a kid who sticks his finger up his butt to try and stop the poop coming out, they aren't ready for elementary mainstreaming.

I blame a lot of this on our country's shameful treatment of mental illnesses, the mentally defective, and the insane. These people are "hot potatoes" that nobody wants to deal with so they just try and stick them somewhere and pretend they don't exist. Just look at the number of violent episodes in America now perpetrated by people with serious mental issues. We can seem to find the money for some really stupid things but we can't take care of those who are outside of "normal" or simply mentally defective. Schools are not really equipped to handle some of these kids.

[mooncliff]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Usually, reporting things as percentage increases/decreases while deliberately omitting the actually numbers... after all, 1 to 2 is a 100 percent increase, while 1 million to 2 million increase is also a 100 percent increase, is usually a sign of deception.
In addition, the world in 1950 and the world now certainly dont seem to have anything to do with each other do they? I looked at dissertations from the 50s that were 40 pages long... not even a term paper now... whereas they are now typically 300 pages or more.
Things are so much more complicated now than they were 50 years ago. My mom and dad know absolutely nothing compared to the 17 year olds I interview for college now. Im not joking. Everything is going parabolic now. Half of information is obsolete in a few years.
Not to say there is no waste or there is no nonsense, but we need to compare the world to the way it is now, in which the US comes in 20th or worse in so many measures, and continues to fall behind. Failure to invest dooms us to continuing decline.

[flintlock]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Usually, reporting things as percentage increases/decreases while deliberately omitting the actually numbers... after all, 1 to 2 is a 100 percent increase, while 1 million to 2 million increase is also a 100 percent increase, is usually a sign of deception.
In addition, the world in 1950 and the world now certainly dont seem to have anything to do with each other do they? I looked at dissertations from the 50s that were 40 pages long... not even a term paper now... whereas they are now typically 300 pages or more.
Things are so much more complicated now than they were 50 years ago. My mom and dad know absolutely nothing compared to the 17 year olds I interview for college now. Im not joking. Everything is going parabolic now. Half of information is obsolete in a few years.
Not to say there is no waste or there is no nonsense, but we need to compare the world to the way it is now, in which the US comes in 20th or worse in so many measures, and continues to fall behind. Failure to invest dooms us to continuing decline.

Good point. The world has gotten more competitive. Kids today are probably better educated overall. My 10 grade twins are learning stuff I learned in college. They have a ton of work dumped on them every day. With extra-curricular activities, etc, they don't finish studying until midnight some nights. I don't ever remember working so hard at HS.

I don't find all of this necessarily good. I think we are heading on a pace that is unsustainable by the majority of the population. The term rat-race comes to mind. People may have more education but they also are becoming more ruthless and often fail to spend time on spiritual matters or attribute any value to tired old concepts like manners, personal responsibility, kindness, honesty, etc. Ultimately, I see a lack of civility as more of a threat to our society than a lack of PhDs. But the Materialist mantra will continue to tell us how happy we must be with all our "stuff". And then we wonder at the corruption of our Politicians and Business leaders? The violent crime in our streets?

[shiny!]

Re: Wasting money on public education

I agree!

As far as special ed, I know a little about this subject because my wife is a special ed teacher at an elementary school. Some of these kids probably don't belong in an elementary school setting. Last year they needed 3 teachers for only 4 or 5 students. Due to budget cuts its now two teachers for 6 students. At times they are more like prison guards than teachers. They always seem to get one or two problem kids who are frankly raving lunatics, violent to teachers and other students, spitting, clawing, screaming, etc. They need the extra teacher because the kids have to be watched every minute all day. Its exhausting. My wife can't even take a bathroom break some days. A few of these kids will literally try to kill someone or hurt themselves if you turn your back for a minute, or they make a break for the door and run away. My wife comes home with bruises and cuts almost every week. And this is in an affluent area, not some bad neighborhood. Wealthy parents drop off the kid and then complain why the school hasn't taught the kid to read and potty trained him, as if they have no responsibilities. God forbid they hire extra help themselves or put the kid in a proper facility to handle them. No, its now seen as the government's problem to fix. The government dumps it on the schools. Not all parents are like that of course, but the schools spend a fortune fighting legal and other battles with a few bad apples. Perhaps these severe types and the schools would be better served in an institution more appropriate for their disability.

Some of these parents are in denial about the kids condition in general. They literally come in to discuss some of these severely damaged kids as if they are just a little slow, or merely having a bad day every now and then. One condescending woman would come in and "teach" the teachers how to spoon feed her child. " You have to praise him" she'll say. They have learned that if they label the kid a certain way, they can keep them in school and avoid expensive extra curricular care they would otherwise require. Its basically daycare, and I don't really have a problem with that. But like most problems with schools, a lot of the problem starts with the parents and it only takes a few to make things worse.

This attempt to "mainstream" some of the worst kids is expensive and disruptive at times. Something tells me when you have a kid who sticks his finger up his butt to try and stop the poop coming out, they aren't ready for elementary mainstreaming.

I blame a lot of this on our country's shameful treatment of mental illnesses, the mentally defective, and the insane. These people are "hot potatoes" that nobody wants to deal with so they just try and stick them somewhere and pretend they don't exist. Just look at the number of violent episodes in America now perpetrated by people with serious mental issues. We can seem to find the money for some really stupid things but we can't take care of those who are outside of "normal" or simply mentally defective. Schools are not really equipped to handle some of these kids.

This is as true as it gets. Air traffic controllers have it easy compared to special ed teachers. They at least get bathroom and lunch breaks. Prison guards and police are at least allowed to defend themselves. Teachers aren't. If a student attacks a teacher, the teacher isn't allowed to hit back in self-defense.

Having to put kids who are bigger than you into holds to keep them from injuring themselves or others... My husband once had to restrain a thrashing student on the floor for twenty minutes because no help came to relieve him, all the while praying that none of the other kids would do something to hurt themselves because he couldn't watch them. If one of them had, he would have been sued by an angry parent.

All this political rhetoric about the all-powerful teachers' union, when these selfless, underpaid, underappreciated heroes can't even get a potty break? Give me a break!

[Raz]

Re: Wasting money on public education

I agree!

As far as special ed, I know a little about this subject because my wife is a special ed teacher at an elementary school. Some of these kids probably don't belong in an elementary school setting. Last year they needed 3 teachers for only 4 or 5 students. Due to budget cuts its now two teachers for 6 students. At times they are more like prison guards than teachers. They always seem to get one or two problem kids who are frankly raving lunatics, violent to teachers and other students, spitting, clawing, screaming, etc. They need the extra teacher because the kids have to be watched every minute all day. Its exhausting. My wife can't even take a bathroom break some days. A few of these kids will literally try to kill someone or hurt themselves if you turn your back for a minute, or they make a break for the door and run away. My wife comes home with bruises and cuts almost every week. And this is in an affluent area, not some bad neighborhood. Wealthy parents drop off the kid and then complain why the school hasn't taught the kid to read and potty trained him, as if they have no responsibilities. God forbid they hire extra help themselves or put the kid in a proper facility to handle them. No, its now seen as the government's problem to fix. The government dumps it on the schools. Not all parents are like that of course, but the schools spend a fortune fighting legal and other battles with a few bad apples. Perhaps these severe types and the schools would be better served in an institution more appropriate for their disability.

Some of these parents are in denial about the kids condition in general. They literally come in to discuss some of these severely damaged kids as if they are just a little slow, or merely having a bad day every now and then. One condescending woman would come in and "teach" the teachers how to spoon feed her child. " You have to praise him" she'll say. They have learned that if they label the kid a certain way, they can keep them in school and avoid expensive extra curricular care they would otherwise require. Its basically daycare, and I don't really have a problem with that. But like most problems with schools, a lot of the problem starts with the parents and it only takes a few to make things worse.

This attempt to "mainstream" some of the worst kids is expensive and disruptive at times. Something tells me when you have a kid who sticks his finger up his butt to try and stop the poop coming out, they aren't ready for elementary mainstreaming.

I blame a lot of this on our country's shameful treatment of mental illnesses, the mentally defective, and the insane. These people are "hot potatoes" that nobody wants to deal with so they just try and stick them somewhere and pretend they don't exist. Just look at the number of violent episodes in America now perpetrated by people with serious mental issues. We can seem to find the money for some really stupid things but we can't take care of those who are outside of "normal" or simply mentally defective. Schools are not really equipped to handle some of these kids.

+1.

My wife has a Masters in Special Ed from UT at Austin. She worked for the state department of education for ten years and spent eighteen years in the classroom, ten of those in a special ed class - all Fourth Grade. EVERYTHING flint said is true.

Her experience with inclusion classes she would describe as a disaster due to several of the kids "included", and the years she spent in a special ed classroom were so horrible as to be beyond belief. The county boards of education are so frightened of Federal judges that they're willing to put most of these children at risk of their physical safety rather than expell some of the kids who should be in a state mental institution. The parents of these near hopeless cases are unwilling to consider anything but their own comfort - they expect the teachers to make their kids normal! And they don't give a rat's-rear-end about the other, higher-functioning kids who are put at risk.

[Ghent12]

Re: Wasting money on public education

You can draw the conclusion that scores overall do not seem to be getting worse with time. That's the main reason I threw it in there. We tend to have a Jeremiad complex in this country where we assume the schools all went to hell after the boomers got out of them, and all schools were better in the past. That doesn't look like the case here.

That's a fair point, I suppose, so long as the scoring methodology remains unchanged over the relevant period of time.

[BK]

Re: Wasting money on public education

The sports addiction is intertwined with our Society. Kids spend more and more time on travel sports instead of reading. My child is a gifted athlete and we choose to avoid the world of travel sports. People are dumbfounded when they ask why our child is not doing travel and tournament travel sports. Meanwhile the extra time in our childs schedule is filled with reading and play (seems to be working). Everyone believes the path to wealth is Sports when the reality is that having your child grow up to be a world class professional athlete is like being struck by lightning (multiple times).

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Wasting money on public education

The sports addiction is intertwined with our Society. Kids spend more and more time on travel sports instead of reading. My child is a gifted athlete and we choose to avoid the world of travel sports. People are dumbfounded when they ask why our child is not doing travel and tournament travel sports. Meanwhile the extra time in our childs schedule is filled with reading and play (seems to be working). Everyone believes the path to wealth is Sports when the reality is that having your child grow up to be a world class professional athlete is like being struck by lightning (multiple times).

Our children are early 20's now. In grade school and high school we had them involved deeply in sports.
20 hrs a week or more with the coach evenings and weekends. Travel. Family vacations planned around big competitions.

We did not do this to make them pro athletes (theirs is a minor sport with no professional athletes)
We did it to teach them work and dedication to excellence, and for the fitness benefits.

In hindsight, the fitness benefit was big and real. They are now lean and strong and graceful, exceptionally so.
The excellence/hard work aspect did not pay off for us.
They should have spent most of that extra time on school work instead; the habits of a champion did not really transfer well to top-notch college work.
The sports were big fun for all of us as a family, and the trophies are nice, but grades are worth more.

[BK]

Re: Wasting money on public education

thriftyandboring,

Ultimately, isn't parenting a crap-shot. My child is young and I have the illusion of controlling and influencing his life. But, I don't really know how things will turn out and I'm just trying my best to figure things out as I go.
We do the best we can, we hope they feel loved, then we have to let them go to find their way.

Best Regards.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Wasting money on public education

thriftyandboring,

Ultimately, isn't parenting a crap-shot. My child is young and I have the illusion of controlling and influencing his life. But, I don't really know how things will turn out and I'm just trying my best to figure things out as I go.
We do the best we can, we hope they feel loved, then we have to let them go to find their way.

Best Regards.

I'll give that a big amen.
We were lucky, ours have turned out great - healthy, happy, productive, and we had no trouble in the teen years.

But in the end those junior national championships for sport had zero side benefits for us.
I think you might be doing the right thing by skipping the travel teams and elite Olympic-track training and concentrating on other things.

Further, I support saving some tax money at our schools by cutting back funding for the swim team, tennis team, golf team, lacrosse team, wrestling team...

[BK]

Re: Wasting money on public education

I agree.

Can you imagine if voters/parents got as excited about Math competition, physics team, or debating club. People are fascinated by athletes. I can observe this because I athletics never came easy to me and my child is a natural. Other parents always want to engage with my child because of his athletic skill as if some of this skill will rub off on them.

Within 3 miles of my home the County spent $5 million dollars developing a new athletic field complex and our town just complete a $1,500,000 investment in a astro-turf field (approximately 12,000 population - 3500 students in town) in the last two years!

Bread and circus - as always!

[srivatsan]

Re: Wasting money on public education

I agree.

Can you imagine if voters/parents got as excited about Math competition, physics team, or debating club. People are fascinated by athletes. I can observe this because I athletics never came easy to me and my child is a natural. Other parents always want to engage with my child because of his athletic skill as if some of this skill will rub off on them.

Within 3 miles of my home the County spent $5 million dollars developing a new athletic field complex and our town just complete a $1,500,000 investment in a astro-turf field (approximately 12,000 population - 3500 students in town) in the last two years!

Bread and circus - as always!

So true.
When I was growing up, sports was encouraged for active life but not as profession. Actually, I was equally motivated to do very well with national level science/geography/maths quizzes as much as playing local club/street cricket/football.

[evangellydonut]

Re: Wasting money on public education

Seniority based system, rather than meritocracy, is the biggest problem in the American public education system. I had a high school AP history teacher who graded tests based on length of essay, which was very different from my AP bio teacher who emphasized on key-words and understanding of concepts. So first semester, I worked my butt-off but kept on getting Bs on exams; second semester, I started BSing long essays with no content and got As. I capped the 2nd semester by writing into my final exam essay, that the teacher was crappy and worthless, and still got an A. This was not some inner-city school, it's one of the top schools in one of the richer areas of California... In contrast, my little sister's music teacher who she absolutely loves because of his creativity and passion, keeps on getting pink-slips at the end of each school year due to budget cuts, and finally was told not to come back after 3 re-hires...

So until there's some reform in the teaching system, I'm voting no on all the tax increases in the coming California election. Caving in to CalPERS will do more harm than good in the long term.

Now, speaking of inefficiencies in the public education system, there was an NPR report of the NY education system where the "bad teachers" gets sent to a location to do nothing all day long, literally, until retirement at which time they can collect nice pensions instead of getting fired for wrong-doings. That's truly mind boggling...