France to ration Engery

[mooncliff]

Re: France to ration Engery

Wow, really? That doesnt make sense to me. Everyone should have access to some basic amount of electricity at low cost, and then if they use a lot, they should pay more.
Interesting.

[DRumsfeld2000]

Re: France to ration Engery

What about installing solar panels in the sunnier areas. Does anyone know how long this takes to be economic, or at least a ball park idea?

[globaleconomicollaps]

Re: France to ration Engery

What about installing solar panels in the sunnier areas. Does anyone know how long this takes to be economic, or at least a ball park idea?

Gail tverberg has an interview up. It was pretty good. A sample:
http://ourfiniteworld.com/2012/10/09...gail-tverberg/


Gail Tverberg: I have a hard time seeing that intermittent renewables (wind and solar photovoltaics) will play a big role in maintaining grid electricity, because of the stress they place on the grid, and the high cost of needed grid upgrades to handle them. Renewables from wood and biomass are hard to scale up, because wood supply is limited and because biomass use tends to compete with food production. Renewables from waste (left over cooking oil, for example) are not something we can count on for the long term, as people stay at home more, and dispose of less waste.

All renewables depend heavily on our fossil fuel system. For example, it takes fossil fuels to make new wind turbines and solar panels, to maintain the electrical grid, and to repair roads needed for maintaining the grid system. Biofuels depend on our fossil fuel based agricultural system.

I expect that the contribution renewables make will occur primarily during the next 10 or 20 years, and will decline over time, because of their fossil fuel dependence.

Quite a few individuals living off-grid would like to guarantee themselves long-term electricity supply through a few solar panels. This is really a separate application of renewables. It will work as long as the solar-panels work, and there are still the required peripherals (batteries, light bulbs, etc.) available—perhaps 30 years.

[BadJuju]

Re: France to ration Engery

All renewables depend heavily on our fossil fuel system. For example, it takes fossil fuels to make new wind turbines and solar panels, to maintain the electrical grid, and to repair roads needed for maintaining the grid system. Biofuels depend on our fossil fuel based agricultural system.

The logic of that isn't particularly sound since we could say everything has a heavy fossil fuel cost in our modern economic system. The fossil fuel cost of a solar cell is figured into the initial buy-in cost. Once you reach the point where it pays itself off, it becomes a net benefit to you. And the time it takes to reach that point is getting shorter and shorter with each passing year. Renewable energy systems are a very worthwhile investment, especially if you are in some prime locations for them. If I am in the Pacific Northwest, I am going to focus on hydroelectric and wind power. If I am in the Southwest, I am going to focus on solar power. I am particularly fond of wind and hydroelectric power because they are such simple systems to make that do not require any high-tech gadgets.

[globaleconomicollaps]

Re: France to ration Engery

The logic of that isn't particularly sound since we could say everything has a heavy fossil fuel cost in our modern economic system. The fossil fuel cost of a solar cell is figured into the initial buy-in cost. Once you reach the point where it pays itself off, it becomes a net benefit to you. And the time it takes to reach that point is getting shorter and shorter with each passing year. Renewable energy systems are a very worthwhile investment, especially if you are in some prime locations for them. If I am in the Pacific Northwest, I am going to focus on hydroelectric and wind power. If I am in the Southwest, I am going to focus on solar power. I am particularly fond of wind and hydroelectric power because they are such simple systems to make that do not require any high-tech gadgets.

She is making a generic statement about societal priorities first and foremost. In effect she says "there is not enough time to deploy the huge number of solar cells needed to replace the disappearing oil before society loses the capacity to build them altogether". If you want to live off grid with your windmill, good luck. The wind doesn't blow at night, when it is very hot, or when it is very cold. If you have a stream on your property and can legally dam it up, do it quick before the government stops you. Governments all over the world are claiming the right to the "watershed". This effectively means it is illegal to capture rain water or dam a steam.

[BadJuju]

Re: France to ration Engery

She is making a generic statement about societal priorities first and foremost. In effect she says "there is not enough time to deploy the huge number of solar cells needed to replace the disappearing oil before society loses the capacity to build them altogether". If you want to live off grid with your windmill, good luck. The wind doesn't blow at night, when it is very hot, or when it is very cold. If you have a stream on your property and can legally dam it up, do it quick before the government stops you. Governments all over the world are claiming the right to the "watershed". This effectively means it is illegal to capture rain water or dam a steam.

She is just another Malthusan doomer if she expects that there will be no fossil fuels to make solar cells. Why are we even paying her any attention? It is junk. There will be oil there. There will be coal there. There will be natural gas there. There will simply be a larger premium to account for the rising prices of energy inputs. Wind does blow at night. It blows hot or cold and is dependent on gradients in pressure. You don't have to dam a stream to generate hydroelectric power. And we don't have to replace all fossil fuels with renewable energy. Renewable energy should exist to moderate fossil fuel use. The capacity for that function is tremendous.'

Having read the article, she really doesn't seem to understand much of anything. We've already covered these things numerous times. The Malthusan disaster prognostications are junk science and should be cast aside for the crap they are. With all due respect, sir, I think you should lump this woman in with the likes of Orlov or Kunstler.