Tungsten Coin Flip

[DSpencer]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

You missed the point; I was assuming that someone that holds onto their coins, has purchased them from anyone other than the issuing mint, and now has no idea if they are genuine should be able to receive confirmation of their authenticity from the issuing authority. Every one of those individuals has to rely upon the genuineness of their coins. If there is a problem that is as widespread as it seems to be today, then the value of the currency is at risk. You can already hand in for exchange and verification any bank note; so why not the same for any issued Gold coin?

Your plan seemed to involved physically melting down the coins and creating new ones. I assume this is a non-trivial expense.

It also doesn't do much good if I find out now that my coins are made of tungsten instead of gold. I assume at that point they would be confiscated from me? Or would the bank just give me a free REAL gold coin?

[don]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

would the bank just give me a free REAL gold coin?

Thanks, I needed the levity!

[Chris Coles]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

You are both missing the point. here in the UK we have a recognised problem with counterfeit £1 coins. No one is trying to say any of them are not legal tender. Why? IMHO because to do so undermines the perceived value of the national currency.

By far the majority of the Gold coins in circulation are legal tender, AS COINS OF THE REALM. In which case, it makes no sense to say, we believe that your coins are dud so go take a hike and stand the loss. Much better to say, very quietly, send them in and we will replace them, no questions asked.

That way they discover the true extent of the problem, perhaps some chance to also discover where and who is manufacturing them and setting about stopping the manufacture.... just the same as with ANY other counterfeit currency.

On the other hand, let us assume that both of you now hold counterfeit coins; so now what do you do? If you were me, I would very quietly set about exchanging them for new coins that I am CERTAIN have come from the national mint.

If everyone does nothing, the whole thing sends out a tiny message that there must be a question mark over the true nature and value of Gold coins held in private hands..... how long before a run on that value sets off to no ones advantage?

[Chris Coles]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

To add some info on counterfeit £1 coins here in the UK.

http://www.royalmint.com/discover/uk...ne-pound-coins

[DSpencer]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

By far the majority of the Gold coins in circulation are legal tender, AS COINS OF THE REALM. In which case, it makes no sense to say, we believe that your coins are dud so go take a hike and stand the loss. Much better to say, very quietly, send them in and we will replace them, no questions asked.

It really sounds like you think the Mint/Gov/Treasury should accept tungsten filled coins, "no questions asked", and exchange them for solid gold coins.

Please confirm that this is simply a joke you are making.

[cobben]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

Are those of "different fitness or underweight" ?

What I find fascinating is that the BoG apparently makes a market in each specified type of counterfeit - you can buy counterfeits from them also?!

Now I'm sure there are reasonable historical reasons for this being so in Greece, going back to WWII, if not further, but . . . perhaps I should write the BoG asking for an explanation? Or rather perhaps the Royal Mint of Great Britain should?

BANK OF GREECE
FINANCIAL OPERATIONS DEPARTMENT
RESERVES MANAGEMENT SECTION

Athens 9/10/2012

BULLETIN OF PRICES OF GOLD BARS AND GOLD COINS Νο. 124 a
for transactions between BoG and Individuals against EUR (Governor's Act 2456/00)
for transactions up to the equivelant of EURO 10.000,00
Valid from 9/10/2012 (08:00) onward until the publication of the next one

A. GOLD
99 GOLD OF FINENESS* 0.995 - 1.000 PER GRAM **	42.12	47.60
B. SOVEREIGN: FINENESS 0.9166 (7,940 - 7,988 GRAM)
01 OLD SOVEREIGN	311.47	375.00
02 NEW SOVEREIGN (minted up to 1973 inclusive)	311.47	375.00
03 NEW SOVEREIGN (minted from 1974 onward)	311.47	371.77
04 SOVEREIGN defective in appearance	302.12	363.76
C. SOVEREIGN : UNDERWEIGHT or OF DIFFERENT FINENESS
05 UNDERWEIGHT SOVEREIGN OF FINENESS 0.9166 (7,900 - 7,939 GR)	297.39	336.11
06 UNDERWEIGHT SOVEREIGN OF FINENESS 0.9166 (7,500 - 7,899 GR)	282.33	319.09
07 UNDERWEIGHT SOVEREIGN OF FINENESS 0.9166 (7.000 - 7.499 GR)	263.50	297.82
08 ITALIAN MINTING SOVEREIGN OF FINENESS 0.905	287.53	324.99
09 LEBANESE MINTING SOVEREIGN OF FINENESS 0.720	229.85	259.91
D. COINS
80 FINENESS 0.900 PER GRAM	37.34	42.20
81 FINENESS 0.9166 PER GRAM	38.03	42.99
83 UNDERWEIGHT OF FINENESS 0.900 PER GRAM	36.96	41.78
84 UNDERWEIGHT OF FINENESS 0.9166 PER GRAM	37.64	42.55
85 ITALIAN or LEBANESE MINTING OF FINENESS 0.900 PER GRAM	36.02	40.70
86 LEBANESE MINTING OF FINENESS 0.720 PER GRAM	28.80	32.57
87 LEBANESE MINTING OF FINENESS 0.600 PER GRAM	24.00	27.15
88 LEBANESE MINTING OF FINENESS 0.500 PER GRAM	20.00	22.62

* Fineness = content in pure gold
** Regarding the gold bars bought by the Bank of Greece, the customer, after agreeing the price with the Bank, should deposit the bars with the Bank so that the fineness of gold can be checked. Following the fineness check, the value of gold will be settled in EUR. At all cases, the client will be charged with the fineness check expenses.

[Chris Coles]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

It really sounds like you think the Mint/Gov/Treasury should accept tungsten filled coins, "no questions asked", and exchange them for solid gold coins.

Please confirm that this is simply a joke you are making.

I do not say "no questions asked". Neither do I make any jokes. What I do say is that at some point someone has to grasp the nettle and take a definitive look at what exactly is going on. Sitting on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs while the value of the coins becomes increasingly suspect is not good for anyone. Suspect coins are surely in exactly the same place as the old fashioned idea of clipping the coin to reduce the amount of Gold in the coins? That was always called debasement of the currency. There has to come a point where the national mints have to take command of the situation; or, they lose control.

What I am saying is they cannot afford to lose control.

[DSpencer]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

I do not say "no questions asked". Neither do I make any jokes.

If indeed, that is so, then the only way out of this dilemma will be for the issuing authorities of the genuine coins to act to assuage holders concerns by taking the initiative by creating a new service that will take in any Gold Coin, (for their own assurance of the content to melt it down into its constituent parts), and reissue a verified coin to the same denomination without any argument.

In which case, it makes no sense to say, we believe that your coins are dud so go take a hike and stand the loss. Much better to say, very quietly, send them in and we will replace them, no questions asked.

I don't even know what to say at this point.

[cobben]

Re: Tungsten Coin Flip

Now I'm sure there are reasonable historical reasons for this being so in Greece, going back to WWII, if not further, but . . . perhaps I should write the BoG asking for an explanation? Or rather perhaps the Royal Mint of Great Britain should?

Fascinating history, I stumbled across this yesterday, had not seen it before.

Sovereign Fakes - Counterfeiting of Sovereigns in 1950s & 1960s

. . .

In November 1954 a British Assistant Treasury Solicitor, Ralph Anderson, visited the Damascus moneychangers’ market. He found openly quoted for sale, British made, Swiss made, Italian made and Syrian made gold sovereigns. Each had a different quoted price. The genuine British made sovereigns being the most expensive and the Syrian made fakes the least. Anderson was one of the leaders of the British fight against the post-war counterfeiting of the gold sovereign. This must have shown him how far he still had to go in his battle to prevent the counterfeiting of the sovereign.

In the twentieth century there was no significant counterfeiting of the sovereign until after the Second World War. By this time the sovereign had been completely replaced in every day use in the United Kingdom by bank notes. However in many areas of the world such as Greece and the Middle East the sovereign was still in great demand.

Large scale minting of the sovereign for circulation ceased in the London Mint in 1917. The six branch mints carried on making relatively small numbers of the coin for some time after this. The Pretoria Mint in South Africa made the last branch mint coins in 1932. This drying up of supply with an unsatisfied demand led to the price of a sovereign rising much more than the price of the gold it contained. London’s Evening Standard reported in 1952 that although the nominal value of the sovereign was one pound or twenty shillings, it contained £2-18 shillings of gold but sold on the continental markets from between £4 and £10.

. . .

[Polish_Silver]

Optical gold tester

http://www.starstruckllc.com/gold_testers.php

Mike

I am pretty sure these only test the surface. They shine light on the surface and measure the properties of the reflected light.
I discussed authenticity at the coin store and the guy discussed something like this. It only determines surface alloy, not bulk. (bulk means the stuff underneath)