Home Schooling in Pictures!

[don]

[don]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

from the other side of the coin, the winner is . . . the 'University' of Phoenix!

Number of Loans in Default

the number one public school in defaults, Columbus State Community College, has 786. The leading for-profit, sleaze favorite 'U' of P, has 35,049. A beautiful job, boyz . . . . don't forget to drop off the check next time you're in Washington . . . .

[DSpencer]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

from the other side of the coin, the winner is . . . the 'University' of Phoenix!

Number of Loans in Default

the number one public school in defaults, Columbus State Community College, has 786. The leading for-profit, sleaze favorite 'U' of P, has 35,049. A beautiful job, boyz . . . . don't forget to drop off the check next time you're in Washington . . . .

U of P also has hundreds of thousands of students. Not exactly a fair comparison. It would probably still be disproportionate though.

It's obvious why U of P does what it does: It is a for-profit institution. People demand its product and are willing to give them money for it.

The questions I have are:
Why are so many students taking out loans to pursue degrees in psychology and library science?
Why does the government continue to make loans to students who are pursuing degrees with such grim job prospects?
Or more importantly, how do we get them to stop?

[don]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

CSCC 2011 in-the-flesh enrollment was 30,839.

U of P for 2010 was 307,965 online.

Assuming a roughly 10:1 enrollment edge to Phoenix their 44.6:1 'advantage' in loan defaults is impressive.

Why does the government continue to make loans to students who are pursuing degrees with such grim job prospects?

Could the U of P lobbyists be a factor? Does U of P have career counseling to match their robust loan department?

There is some good news - U of P has reported a drop of 42% enrollment this year.

[Ghent12]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

Let people accept consequences for their decisions. I do not see any problem with letting people with degrees in clinical psychology, miscellaneous fine arts, United States history, library science, or architecture accept the consequences of their choices. Let them accept their fate as unemployed for being so gullible as to believe that they could "do what they wanted to do" and still put food on the table. It seems like they wasted 5 or 6 years getting their 4-year degree in a field that is either largely irrelevant or way overpopulated. Did nobody tell them that getting a degree in fine arts is essentially a complete waste?

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

Long article in Salon

"No sympathy for the creative class"

More typical than a celebrity artist feasting on enormous grants, he says, is someone like Morton Lauridsen, who is now one of the most performed living composers – after decades of scraping by, teaching and writing choral works. Or a writer like Kay Ryan, who, until becoming U.S. poet laureate in 2008 was known to only a small few. “She never applied for a grant, never taught writing,” Gioia says. “She taught remedial reading at a community college.”

It was the Coast Guard Academy band, in New London, Conn., that allowed Kelli O’Connor, a conservatory-trained clarinet and saxophone player, to make a living. These days she’s a principal in a nearby orchestra, plays with a chamber group at a Boston church, coaches at area high schools and teaches at the University of Rhode Island: None of these pay a full salary or significant benefits. “Freelancing is a hustle all the time,” she says. “You master the art of scheduling. Squeezing in as much as possible. There are some days when I’m not done until 11 or 12 at night, and then I have to get up at 7 in the morning.”

[dcarrigg]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

U of P also has hundreds of thousands of students. Not exactly a fair comparison. It would probably still be disproportionate though.

It's obvious why U of P does what it does: It is a for-profit institution. People demand its product and are willing to give them money for it.

The questions I have are:
Why are so many students taking out loans to pursue degrees in psychology and library science?
Why does the government continue to make loans to students who are pursuing degrees with such grim job prospects?
Or more importantly, how do we get them to stop?

Is it always so clear what the good bets are?

"Engineering and Industrial Management" had one of the highest unemployment rates - near 10%. Ditto for "International Business."

Genetics, Neuroscience, Computer Engineering, and Biochemistry had unemployment rates at or above 7.0%

While Political Science, Area Ethnic and Civilization Studies, Biology and Ecology were all 6.0% or less.

The key is probably more to make sure you aren't in the bottom 20% of whatever it is you are doing. In fact, the real key is to push yourself hard and see if you can't at least get yourself in the top 5% of whatever it is you're doing where you're at.

That 5% will probably never want for employment. The bottom 5% in a given field will probably always find themselves un or under employed.

That's my take anyhow.

[don]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

the student debt bubble mirrors the home mortgage debt bubble with similar consequences for the economy at large

[flintlock]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

Let people accept consequences for their decisions. I do not see any problem with letting people with degrees in clinical psychology, miscellaneous fine arts, United States history, library science, or architecture accept the consequences of their choices. Let them accept their fate as unemployed for being so gullible as to believe that they could "do what they wanted to do" and still put food on the table. It seems like they wasted 5 or 6 years getting their 4-year degree in a field that is either largely irrelevant or way overpopulated. Did nobody tell them that getting a degree in fine arts is essentially a complete waste?

I tend to agree. I wanted to be a history major, but then my brain clicked in. But then not everyone is cut out to be an Engineer or Chemist either. Personally I think the idea that college is for everyone is oversold anyway.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

I tend to agree. I wanted to be a history major, but then my brain clicked in. But then not everyone is cut out to be an Engineer or Chemist either. Personally I think the idea that college is for everyone is oversold anyway.

I also loved history more than any other subject, but realized it would be hard to make much of a living at it. Fortunately I was also good at math and science. But I did dream for quite a while about working until I was about 40 and going back to school to get a PhD in History and teaching at some vine covered college somewhere. Oh well, dreams do not always come true.

[DSpencer]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

Long article in Salon

"No sympathy for the creative class"

More typical than a celebrity artist feasting on enormous grants, he says, is someone like Morton Lauridsen, who is now one of the most performed living composers – after decades of scraping by, teaching and writing choral works. Or a writer like Kay Ryan, who, until becoming U.S. poet laureate in 2008 was known to only a small few. “She never applied for a grant, never taught writing,” Gioia says. “She taught remedial reading at a community college.”

It was the Coast Guard Academy band, in New London, Conn., that allowed Kelli O’Connor, a conservatory-trained clarinet and saxophone player, to make a living. These days she’s a principal in a nearby orchestra, plays with a chamber group at a Boston church, coaches at area high schools and teaches at the University of Rhode Island: None of these pay a full salary or significant benefits. “Freelancing is a hustle all the time,” she says. “You master the art of scheduling. Squeezing in as much as possible. There are some days when I’m not done until 11 or 12 at night, and then I have to get up at 7 in the morning.”

Does it never occur to the people writing these articles that there are millions of people who work a boring day job and have side hobbies like music, sports, cooking, video games etc that WISH they could do their hobby for a living but understand that there has to be demand for the product of their work to make good money? Even after becoming US poet laureate, how many people know who Kay Ryan is?

Not everyone can be an artist or musician just because they like doing it. The idea of "just doing what you love" as a way of surviving is a laughable fantasy for nearly the whole time humans have existed on earth. The fact that today it's possible for a small number of people to be professional athletes or musicians or whatever does not make it a viable career for everyone that would like to do that.

How many people have dreamed of becoming a coal miner? Or sitting at a desk doing paperwork? Or cleaning toilets?

[jiimbergin]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

Does it never occur to the people writing these articles that there are millions of people who work a boring day job and have side hobbies like music, sports, cooking, video games etc that WISH they could do their hobby for a living but understand that there has to be demand for the product of their work to make good money? Even after becoming US poet laureate, how many people know who Kay Ryan is?

Not everyone can be an artist or musician just because they like doing it. The idea of "just doing what you love" as a way of surviving is a laughable fantasy for nearly the whole time humans have existed on earth. The fact that today it's possible for a small number of people to be professional athletes or musicians or whatever does not make it a viable career for everyone that would like to do that.

How many people have dreamed of becoming a coal miner? Or sitting at a desk doing paperwork? Or cleaning toilets?

My son is a good example. Although he has 3 music degrees (cost us very little since he went to a public NC state university) he started a small computer consulting business while still in college and has lived quite comfortably for the past 20 years. However, he plays in several community bands and volunteers with the HS band. His daughter is an fantastic trumpet player and is at a special high school for the arts, but she plans to be a bio-chemist not a musician.

[Ghent12]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

I tend to agree. I wanted to be a history major, but then my brain clicked in. But then not everyone is cut out to be an Engineer or Chemist either. Personally I think the idea that college is for everyone is oversold anyway.

I completely agree with your last sentence. It is certainly oversold, but then again, the problem is quite systemic and is not limited to the notion that a college degree is the ticket to a better life. Four years (or, more realistically, five or six years since that's how long people tend to take nowadays to complete four year degrees) of solid work experience could also be a bonafide ticket to a better life too. At least then, in most cases, you have to produce something of value for your employer, and you generally are not going into debt to do it.

Of course, the government has multiple interferences that not just encourage the notion that everyone should go to college, but make it sometimes the only reasonable option that people have. And then you have the situation where a student is one missed guidance counselor meeting away from choosing an unmarketable degree, or worse, they are one attended guidance counselor meeting away from choosing that same degree!

There are a number of small steps that could happen to reduce reliance upon holding a degree, that reduce the tendency for degree dilution, and encourage people to contribute to society in their youth when they have the most energy. For starters, we could repeal or reduce the minimum wage laws all over the country. Or we could at least keep it where it is and allow it to be inflated away to triviality, as is often the case until it is raised once again. A minimum wage law makes it illegal to work if you aren't worth at least the minimum wage to your employer, which most critically affects people who have no work experience and no skills developed. It removes entry-level positions from existence! How is one to get into an entry-level position when they have to produce at least the minimum wage to make it worthwhile for their employer? By putting their degree on their resume... Such a pernicious system...

[astonas]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

I completely agree with your last sentence. It is certainly oversold, but then again, the problem is quite systemic and is not limited to the notion that a college degree is the ticket to a better life. Four years (or, more realistically, five or six years since that's how long people tend to take nowadays to complete four year degrees) of solid work experience could also be a bonafide ticket to a better life too. At least then, in most cases, you have to produce something of value for your employer, and you generally are not going into debt to do it.

Of course, the government has multiple interferences that not just encourage the notion that everyone should go to college, but make it sometimes the only reasonable option that people have. And then you have the situation where a student is one missed guidance counselor meeting away from choosing an unmarketable degree, or worse, they are one attended guidance counselor meeting away from choosing that same degree!

There are a number of small steps that could happen to reduce reliance upon holding a degree, that reduce the tendency for degree dilution, and encourage people to contribute to society in their youth when they have the most energy. For starters, we could repeal or reduce the minimum wage laws all over the country. Or we could at least keep it where it is and allow it to be inflated away to triviality, as is often the case until it is raised once again. A minimum wage law makes it illegal to work if you aren't worth at least the minimum wage to your employer, which most critically affects people who have no work experience and no skills developed. It removes entry-level positions from existence! How is one to get into an entry-level position when they have to produce at least the minimum wage to make it worthwhile for their employer? By putting their degree on their resume... Such a pernicious system...

There is yet another way to rework the educational structure: meaningful vocational/apprenticeship instruction.

One reason that college is now a requirement is that we have so watered down our K-12 education.

We all know, whether it is polite to admit it or not, that not every person entering high school is college material. If those individuals who aren't, can use the time they now spend preparing for a college degree on learning useful skills that now are pushed out to community/technical colleges, I would expect not only a more productive workforce, but a more engaged student body in high school.

There are other countries that do this part much better than we do. Maybe it's time to stop saying "we're the best" and start copying what works. If we really ARE the best, an entrepreneurial person who goes through a good apprenticeship program should be able to start and run a small business (on the order of a few people in a machine shop) with ~5 years experience after their apprenticeship.

If this can work in staid old Europe, I would imagine that it should be even more viable in a nation whose laws are comparitively favorable for entrepreneurs, like the U.S.

[Ghent12]

Re: Home Schooling in Pictures!

There is yet another way to rework the educational structure: meaningful vocational/apprenticeship instruction.

One reason that college is now a requirement is that we have so watered down our K-12 education.

We all know, whether it is polite to admit it or not, that not every person entering high school is college material. If those individuals who aren't, can use the time they now spend preparing for a college degree on learning useful skills that now are pushed out to community/technical colleges, I would expect not only a more productive workforce, but a more engaged student body in high school.

There are other countries that do this part much better than we do. Maybe it's time to stop saying "we're the best" and start copying what works. If we really ARE the best, an entrepreneurial person who goes through a good apprenticeship program should be able to start and run a small business (on the order of a few people in a machine shop) with ~5 years experience after their apprenticeship.

If this can work in staid old Europe, I would imagine that it should be even more viable in a nation whose laws are comparitively favorable for entrepreneurs, like the U.S.

Good luck with that. There are powerful political forces in the way of any type of reform of the bleeding cash cow that is our present educational system. Children in Chicago are, right this very moment, not even being babysat by the teachers there during the day because the teachers demand even more money, demand to retain their benefits, and refuse any level of quality control.

There are all kinds of commonly held notions standing in the way. "Only the government can educate." "Teachers get paid so little for all the work they do." "Small classes are better than large classes."

As I said, good luck on reform or change. Knowing a better way to educate and getting political support for it are two separate things. You will never have a voting public that is knowledgable enough to create any system that is optimal for anything. They will always be swayed this way and that due to vocal interests. I, for one, think that is just fine--you get what your ignorance deserves. Even though this does tend to cause severe misallocations of resources, such as is highlighted by the situation unfolding in Chicago, this is the system we live in where every single person has an asshole, an opinion, and a vote.