“Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

[vt]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

That's why, as I've stated, we have to replace both parties (run by their radical wings) with a moderate party that is fiscally responsible and socially moderate. More Americans identify themselves as independents than as Democrats or Republicans.

[doom&gloom]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

It just amazes me how much the Democrats and Republicans have managed to turn American politics into a sport where Americans get divided on team lines and rabidly support their party no matter what. Every time one party assumes office, things inevitably worsen and the other side screams bloody murder that their team can do things much better. And when they eventually weasel their way back into control, things worsen again and the other team cries foul and how they have the answer this time. It is a bloody circus. Americans eat it up, though.

just like... British Soccer.

[doom&gloom]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

Speaking of false premises, I love that the implicit assumption in discussions like this that it is somehow possible to please all people all the time by coming up with a magic "fair tax system" where miraculously and suddenly everyone unanimously decides that they are now happy to comply with and pay into any tax system at all.

Someone will always be unhappy and "disenfranchised", but as everyone whose ever run anything knows, you can't please everyone all the time, just try not to eff it up for the next guy.

I've had the opportunity to start and successfully exit a number of small businesses, some with 5 employees, some with 25-50. What I've learned time and again is that 90% of your employees will be unhappy with some aspect of their workload or compensation package regardless of whether I've over paid them or under paid them (I've done both). People just naturally seem to like compare their situation to others and complain about any disparity, real or imagined. That's life.

I don't see taxation systems and their popularity as any different really.

Oh so true, and since I sold my biz, I have never been happier to not deal with this crap.

[vinoveri]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

BadJuju,

I sympathize with your situation. I really do. But your anger is misdirected. The wealthy are not the problem. Our governments have failed us, but that is not a suprise to many of us that are labeled conservatives, tea partiers, libertarians, anarchists, what have you. Many people suceed in spite of the governement, not because of it. The bottom line is that you can not depend on the wealthy or the government or corporations or any outside agency/entity to help you. You must figure out how to create a fulfilling life on your own. All you can do is the best you can do, with what you have, and in the environment provided. There are hundreds of millions of individuals in very similar situations to yours; some better off, some worse off. Your happiness is in your control.

I agree with you for the most part. Particularly on the last point but only because one's will is in their own control, not their financial means by and large although one's choices and actions do affect that.

It's not about wealth disparity per se. The issues is crony capitalism and corptocratcy, and in particulary monetary system with the Fed lending money at 0% to primary dealers who put it to work themselves or lend it out to other insiders (hedge funds, private equity, etc., ) at preferred rate , e.g., rates that the general public can't get, who can then generate "rent income" at the expense of the rest of society. The 'privileged insiders' may be a rhetorical term but make no mistake, the privilege comes in b/c money generation is organized, systemic and for everyone to see. This is what needs to be over-turned. Working "hard" to exploit a system to one's financial advantage is not the same thing as working hard to "lift all boats". The gov continues to enable the former with its institutions (Fed) and policies. "if you can't beat join em" is the motto of a traitor to liberty and humanity in our current environment.

To say that a lot of people are in the same situation does justify the current system. It does lend support for the view that the system needs massive reform.

[raja]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

This is another line of reasoning I absolutely despise. That we should not tax the wealthy more because it would not completely solve the deficit problem. It doesn't have to completely solve the debt problem. It just needs to solve the problem of the wealthy receiving all of the benefits of society while not paying their fare share. They are separate issues, although interlinked.

I, too, would like to see a more fair tax system.
But our economic problems are caused by much more than just unfair taxation.

[flintlock]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

We've got to stop this.

Can we make an iTulip agreement, ladies and gentlemen?

How about those of us with left leaning tendencies agree to quit calling the wealthy "scum," "trash," and other derogatory names.

In exchange, those of us with right leaning tendencies could agree to quit calling taxation, "confiscating wealth."

Then maybe this whole discussion can take a more productive turn.


P.S., I once wrote the following:



I now think the same applies for the words "unfunded liabilities."

Did you ever calculate your own personal unfunded liability? Imagine yourself at 20 years old. Now, add up all of your and your family's mortgage payments, rent payments, food bills, energy bills, entertainment bills, insurance bills, telecommunications bills, and incidentals that you figure you'll spend for the rest of your life, adjusting for inflation over time.

Now what's that number? How accurate is that number? How much does that number matter?

Who cares?

AmEn regarding the use of derogatory terms. And i've often encouraged people to consider their own unfunded liabilities. I still maintain most cannot pay their own way through life when you consider the true cost of living, cradle to grave. Myself included!

Lots of good posts here. I also have sympathy for the plight of the young today. Upward mobility is not has easy as it used to be, though it is still happening. But then most of us are starting off from a better place. My dad and two of his three brothers all came from near poverty and now all three are millionaires several times over. That story is becoming much harder to replicate, but then you must also consider that what people consider working hard has probably changed. The standard of living has improved and so perhaps peoples motivation has also suffered. Real poverty is a serious motivating factor. People in "poverty" today are not necessarily as "poor" as they used to be. Most get enough to eat, many own TVs and even cars. And there are programs in place today that give some cushion against hitting rock bottom that didnt exist in the 30s and 40s when their generation grew up. But i am always the first to point out to my Dad that it is harder to make it in some regards, especially without an expensive education. I find it no small coincidence that of my Fathers family of four boys, the three that went ROTC and got an education ended up well off.

For those young having a hard time getting a job, consider starting a business. Im not talking borrowing a ton of money and buy an instant business. . I mean build it from the ground up. And dont consider anything beneath you. People are looking for integrity and consistency in all fields. That costs nothing. Right out of college I was faced with serious health problems and despite good credentials, practical considerations made me virtually unemployable. So I made my own job, in a field I didnt plan or necessarily train for. Ive manage to make a living and raise three kids when the majority in my condition are on disability. Im not rich but considering all I still feel successful.

Consider any business that fills a need. The company that cleans my gutters is the largest in the state. Started out with one crew and now they have dozens. Not glamorous, I know, but the owner has to be making a good living. And it didnt take a Phd or a million dollars to start.

[flintlock]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

We live in a highly unequal society. Currently, it is only the (very tenuous, at this point) protections of the state that prevent complete tyranny of the private sector over the poor. Libertarians pay lip service to valuing "liberty" but are only opposed to the infringements of liberty from the state, ignoring those of the private sector.

You want to get rid of the state, which will create a power vacuum. When that happens, and we know this without exception in human history, what fills that vacuum is the most powerful institutions in society, and right now the majority of citizens are powerless against private institutions. The state is indeed flawed and corrupted, but reform rather than abolition, is the only option that can protect the weak and impoverished majority from the tyranny of the minority of the wealthy and powerful.

Yes we live in an unequal society. Since when are people equal? Some have more skills, are better looking, better health, better personalities. Is it any surprise that income is not distributed equally?

The problem I have today is the purchasing of political advantage and the lack of enforcement of laws against fraud and monopoly. Fix that and then I say the system will play out exactly as it should. You are always going to have a lot of sour grapes in regards to wealth equality. That has gone on since the beginning of time.

[flintlock]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

This is another line of reasoning I absolutely despise. That we should not tax the wealthy more because it would not completely solve the deficit problem. It doesn't have to completely solve the debt problem. It just needs to solve the problem of the wealthy receiving all of the benefits of society while not paying their fare share. They are separate issues, although interlinked.

The disproportionate amount of taxes paid by those with higher incomes becomes more apparent when looking at their share of the nation's federal tax liability. The top 1 percent paid 38.7 percent of income taxes in 2009, and the top 20 percent paid 94.1 percent of income taxes.

A true "fair" would mean we all pay exactly the same wouldnt it? Now I dont advocate that, but when people use the term fair then it becomes a matter of defining fair. Think of it another way. If you and I were tasked with a college project, and you being obviously smarter, I told you your fair share would be to do all the project. Would you consider this fair? Probably not. I use this example because its exactly what my brother did to me my last quarter of business school.So fair isnt really the term I would use. Proportional perhaps is better. Proportional to their success? Their gain from our system? That I can go along with.

I would like to see an end to the selective deductions the wealthy are allowed. I dont feel like the US treasury should be subsidizing someones macmansion or yacht. We need to determine a proper rate for all incomes and then go with it.

But I really cant fault the proportion most well off pay. Why cant we just admit our standard of living has outdistanced our ability to pay for it? How many of us ever stop and really think how well off we have it? My "poor" friend lives in a 3bed 2 bath, owns 4 cars, and has broadband and HD television for heavens sake. If there were no rich would that really make us happier? I think for many the answer is yes. Its about looking in the other guys pockets, not how bad we have it. And thats just human nature.

[flintlock]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

Speaking of false premises, I love that the implicit assumption in discussions like this that it is somehow possible to please all people all the time by coming up with a magic "fair tax system" where miraculously and suddenly everyone unanimously decides that they are now happy to comply with and pay into any tax system at all.

Someone will always be unhappy and "disenfranchised", but as everyone whose ever run anything knows, you can't please everyone all the time, just try not to eff it up for the next guy.

I've had the opportunity to start and successfully exit a number of small businesses, some with 5 employees, some with 25-50. What I've learned time and again is that 90% of your employees will be unhappy with some aspect of their workload or compensation package regardless of whether I've over paid them or under paid them (I've done both). People just naturally seem to like compare their situation to others and complain about any disparity, real or imagined. That's life.

I don't see taxation systems and their popularity as any different really.

So dang true! Kids can be the same way.

[doom&gloom]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

When I started in business (temporary help), I had friends who marvelled that I would just go out there and start from scratch. They always wondered how I felt about the competition. I always answered the competition simply did not matter, what mattered was why MY firm did and did correctly. If we did a better job than the competition, we would get and retain business -- and we did. I believe it also helped that I never grew beyond one office. It kept our moral compass always moving in the same direction as a team. I always believed had i tried to grow more, while I might have made more money (who knows) quality of service would have suffered. In the end it all worked out okay.

There is always opportunity for those willing to work. The press gets all excited about companies like FacePlant, but there are many many millionaires in what could be described as dull, boring businesses who started at the bottom and built something. The key is to never have all your eggs in one basket (client), always have a multitude of clients, and never be satisfied with your volume of business because it will always change, either up or down. There is no 'steady state' in business.

I have mentioned before that I have a friend who runs a business in the security field. He lives in a nice house in an affluent community, supports his family, has 'money in the bank', investments, etc. And his company is near 'virtual' -- he has almost no staff, everyone is contract as needed. Today's world allows such a model.

The other day I ran into a young lady who had thoughts of becoming a journalist. I asked what she was currently writing, and she replied nothing. I asked why, and she said she really did not know. Then I encouraged her to think of what she is most passionate about and start a blog. Go look at other blogs in the same field, see what they are doing, and do something similar but unique. And keep writing every day for 30 minutes minimum, no matter what. By the time she finishes school she may actually be a very good writier, but she was waiting for someone to tell her when and what to write, I told her just write and see where it goes. As I walked out the store where she sat bored waiting for customers on her summer job, she was in Blogger setting up a blog.

No one needs ot be a genius to start a coffee shop, or a janitorial service, boat cleaning, a lawn care service, or a hot dog stand, or any number of other ventures. Some take more money than others, but all are relatively cheap. One friend partnered up with a guy who had started to help companies manage workmens comp claims. That guy had no experience when he started, and my friend came in about a year later. A few years down the line they were hiring and training more people. The guy who started the biz is the 'face' and sales rep, my friend the 'back office'. I encouraged him that he needed to get some stock in the biz, not just be an employee since he made everything work behind the scenes. After a few meetings he ended up with 1/3 of the company. Before then he was content to be an employee. Had not pushed him then, the company may have grown to where he was no longer so critical and had no negotiating power.

Opportunity is everywhere is you have an open eye, a willingness to work, and the ability to sacrifice the short term for the long term gain.

[BadJuju]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

I was thinking about starting a leaf raking service this fall. Not too much in capital investment since all I need is a rake and me bicycle.

[c1ue]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

Is there any level of taxation where you would respect someone's decision to move in order to avoid it?

No. But then again, note I also didn't say I disrespect them.

A decision made for financial reasons is just that, a decision made about money.

The part which made me the most amused about the original article is that the threat of these people moving was in some way credible.

If, at the end of the day, a person decides to exit their society for reasons of money, so be it.

Yes we live in an unequal society. Since when are people equal? Some have more skills, are better looking, better health, better personalities. Is it any surprise that income is not distributed equally?

The point isn't that people are equal. The point is: should opportunity be equal?

A society in which you have to pay for private school to get a decent education - that's not equal opportunity any more than being a Bush gets you a piece of the Texas Rangers.

Buying political favors, lack of enforcement of fraud, these are also means by which inequality of opportunity is created. See the Bill Black thread response I put up.

[flintlock]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

In addition to the request that you post your personal record on job creation, I think you should also post your supporting evidence that most millionaires are not job creators.

Apparently you don't want to live in a country with millionaires. I suggest you do some research and discover the country with the lowest percentage of millionaires and then move there. Then report back on this land of paradise.

I hear Somalia is nice!

[flintlock]

Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

I would be glad to become a job creator if a millionaire. Send donations to .......