Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

“Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/08/bu...pagewanted=all

    Indigestion for ‘les Riches’ in a Plan for Higher Taxes
    Thomas Humery for The International Herald Tribune

    Vincent Grandil, a tax lawyer in Paris, said many of his wealthy clients were asking him if they should bother to remain in France.
    By LIZ ALDERMAN
    Published: August 7, 2012

    PARIS — The call to Vincent Grandil’s Paris law firm began like many others that have rolled in recently. On the line was the well-paid chief executive of one of France’s most profitable companies, and he was feeling nervous.
    Multimedia
    Graphic
    Wealthy in France May Pay More
    Photos by: Julien M. Hekimian/Getty Images; Eric Gaillard/Reuters; Yuri Kadobnov/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

    Some rich citizens have already left. In recent years, the actress and model Laetitia Casta, the chef Alain Ducasse and the singer and actor Johnny Hallyday all moved away to avoid high taxes.
    Enlarge This Image
    The New York Times

    President François Hollande is vowing to impose a 75 percent tax on the portion of anyone’s income above a million euros ($1.24 million) a year. “Should I be preparing to leave the country?” the executive asked Mr. Grandil.

    The lawyer’s counsel: Wait and see. For now, at least.

    “We’re getting a lot of calls from high earners who are asking whether they should get out of France,” said Mr. Grandil, a partner at Altexis, which specializes in tax matters for corporations and the wealthy. “Even young, dynamic people pulling in 200,000 euros are wondering whether to remain in a country where making money is not considered a good thing.”

    A chill is wafting over France’s business class as Mr. Hollande, the country’s first Socialist president since François Mitterrand in the 1980s, presses a manifesto of patriotism to “pay extra tax to get the country back on its feet again.” The 75 percent tax proposal, which Parliament plans to take up in September, is ostensibly aimed at bolstering French finances as Europe’s long-running debt crisis intensifies.

    But because there are relatively few people in France whose income would incur such a tax — an estimated 7,000 to 30,000 in a country of 65 million — the gains might contribute but a small fraction of the 33 billion euros in new revenue the government wants to raise next year to help balance the budget.

    The French finance ministry did not respond to requests for an estimate of the revenue the tax might raise. Though the amount would be low, some analysts note that a tax hit on the rich would provide political cover for painful cuts Mr. Hollande may need to make next year in social and welfare programs that are likely to be far less popular with the rank and file.

    In that regard, the tax could have enormous symbolic value as a blow for egalité, coming from a new president who has proclaimed, “I don’t like the rich.”

    “French people have an uncomfortable relationship with money,” Mr. Grandil said. “Here, someone who is a self-made man, creating jobs and ending up as a millionaire, is viewed with suspicion. This is big cultural difference between France and the United States.”

    Many companies are studying contingency plans to move high-paid executives outside of France, according to consultants, lawyers, accountants and real estate agents — who are highly protective of their clients and decline to identify them by name. They say some executives and wealthy people have already packed up for destinations like Britain, Belgium, Switzerland and the United States, taking their taxable income with them.

    They also know of companies — start-ups and multinationals alike — that are delaying plans to invest in France or to move employees or new hires here.

    Whether many wealthy residents will actually leave and companies will change their plans, of course, remains to be seen. Some of the criticism could be political posturing, aimed at trying to dissuade the government from going through with the planned tax increase.

    But some wealthy people left after Mr. Mitterrand raised taxes in the 1980s. And more recently, the former Victoria’s Secret model Laetetia Casta, the restaurateur Alain Ducasse and the singer Johnny Hallyday caused a stir by moving to countries just across the border to escape the French treasury’s heavy hand.

    There is no question Mr. Hollande is under fiscal pressure. He has pledged to reduce France’s budget deficit, currently 4.5 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product, to 3 percent by next year, to meet euro zone rules.

    The matter of how best to hit that target, though, is as much a political question as a fiscal one. Mr. Hollande was elected in May on a wave of resentment against “les riches” — company executives, bankers, sports stars and celebrities whose paychecks tend to be seen as scandalous in a country where the growing divide between rich and poor touches a cultural nerve whose roots predate Robespierre.

    Half the nation’s households earn less than 19,000 euros a year; only about 10 percent of households earn more than 60,000 euros annually, according to the French statistics agency, Insee.

    There is currently no plan to change the tax rates for most people, which is 14 percent for the poorest and 30 percent for the next rung. For higher earners — people with incomes above 70,830 euros a year — the tax rate will soon rise to 44 percent, up from 41, in a change that was already set before Mr. Hollande’s election.

    A tax accountant in Paris with many wealthy clients, Steve Horton, has calculated that a two-parent, two-child household with taxable annual income of a bit more than 2.22 million euros ($2.75 million) now has after-tax take-home pay of about 1.1 million euros ($1.35 million) under France’s current tax system.

    That household would end up with 780,000 euros, or $966,000, if the Hollande tax took effect, Mr. Horton says. (The same family, with comparable income in Manhattan, would take home $1.55 million, the dollar equivalent of 1.25 million euros, after paying federal, state and city income taxes, he calculated.)

    Taxes are high in France for a reason: they pay for one of Europe’s most generous social welfare systems and a large government. As Mr. Hollande has described it, the tax plan is about “justice,” and “sending out a signal, a message of social cohesion.”

    That struck a chord with voters angry about the wealth divide. And it is supported by some economists, including Thomas Piketty, a professor at the Paris School of Economics, who has conducted studies indicating that high earners will not work less hard if taxed more. But some say France could send out the wrong signal.

    “People have an acceptable amount of taxes they are willing to pay,” said Mr. Horton, the accountant, “and if it goes above that, they will move somewhere that’s more reasonable.”

    “The thing French politicians don’t seem to understand or care about is that when you tax away two-thirds of someone’s earnings to appeal to voters, productive people who can enrich businesses and the economy won’t come — or they will just leave,” said Diane Segalen, a corporate headhunter.

    She said she had been close to sealing a deal for a seasoned executive in London to join one of France’s biggest companies earlier this year, when Mr. Hollande made his 75 percent vow.

    “When the guy heard that, he said, ‘I’m not coming,’ and withdrew from the process,” said Mrs. Segalen, the head of the Segalen et Associés, a consulting firm.

    For Mrs. Segalen, the proposal is the latest red flag in a country that has long labored under the image of being a difficult place to do business. France has a 33 percent corporate tax rate — the euro zone’s second-highest, after Malta’s 35 percent. That contrasts with the 12.5 percent rate in Ireland, which has deliberately kept a lid on corporate taxes as a lure to businesses.

    “It is a ridiculous proposal, but it’s great for us,” said Jean Dekerchove, the manager of Immobilièr Le Lion, a high-end real estate agency based in Brussels. Calls to his office have picked up in recent months, he said, as wealthy French citizens look to invest or simply move across the border amid worries about the latest tax.

    “It’s a huge loss for France because people and businesses come to Belgium and bring their wealth with them,” Mr. Dekerchove said. “But we’re thrilled because they create jobs, they buy houses and spend money — and it’s our economy that profits.”

  • #2
    Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

    Most millionaires are probably not job creators. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

      the 3 french citizens shown accompanying the article, each of whom left already because of taxes, included a model, a chef, and a pop singer- job creators all!

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

        BadJuju and jk,

        Come on, guys. Class warfare rhetoric from iTuliper's? Do you really have a problem with three entertainers who became wealthy and are being proactive in protecting their wealth from confiscatory quasi-socialist actions? You should rethink your posts.
        "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

          Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
          Most millionaires are probably not job creators. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.
          What is your problem with three entertainers who became wealthy as a result of mass audience appeal?

          Just to understand your position of expertise here, what is your personal track record on job creation?
          "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

            Apparently, this excellent story deserves a re-posting...

            Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100…

            If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this…


            The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

            The fifth would pay $1.
            The sixth would pay $3.
            The seventh would pay $7..
            The eighth would pay $12.
            The ninth would pay $18.
            The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

            So, that’s what they decided to do..

            The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20″. Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.
            The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?
            They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

            So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.


            And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).

            The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).
            The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).
            The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).
            The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).
            The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

            Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.


            “I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,”but he got $10!”

            “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!”
            “That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!”
            “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison, “we didn’t get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!”
            The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

            The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

            And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.


            Simplistic?...Yes. Pertinent and realistic...most definitely.
            "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

              And I can only assume these french millionaires hired people to clean their homes, fix their house, cut the grass. And then they have to eat, so people are employed for that as well. Everyone creates jobs to some degree. Now they still will, just not in France. That Whooshing sound is the money leaving France.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
                Most millionaires are probably not job creators. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.
                Why are they "rubbish"? Because they don't want most of their income confiscated?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                  Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
                  Apparently, this excellent story deserves a re-posting...

                  Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100…


                  Simplistic?...Yes. Pertinent and realistic...most definitely.
                  You forgot to finish the story...

                  The day after the 10th man didn't show up, he found out what the other 9 talked about while he was away.

                  Since the 10th man had gotten so rich being the owner of the local bank, and having friends in the local gov't to make sure all business went through him, and all tax breaks went in his favor, the 9 decided to just stop paying back the mortgages and loans they owed to the rich man. With no more income rolling into his bank, his highly leverage positions started to unwind with other banks he was in cahoots with. He faced a horrible liquidity crisis and was in danger of losing his business. But luckily he had all those friends in the govt. They just used all of their reserves and jacked up the taxes on the other 9 men to 'loan' the rich man all the money he needed to get through the crisis. Now the 1st through 7th men had no money left to pay for the beer, the 8th and 9th men could only go out drinking once a month, and so the local barkeep had to close his shop. The 10th man bought a new estate in Conneticut, ripped down the house on the property (which was built in 2009) and put up a brand new home, complete with his own bar.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                    +1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                      Originally posted by BadJuju View Post
                      Most millionaires are probably not job creators. Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say.
                      If the world functioned on sound money, if political connections were not used to grow or protect wealth, if money "at risk" was truly "at risk," if pension funds and other institutional investors representing the public actually held executives of publicly traded companies accountable and watched out for board of director/ceo sweet deals, etc.. etc... etc...

                      then millionaires would be very rare creatures.... billionaires even more so.

                      We need a tax system that rewards the people with skin in the game, the people that succeed without corrupt political connections, the small businessman that mortgages his house to start a business, etc... The "rich" are not all alike. But unfortunately, I would think that most of the wealthy, especially billionaires, would not have gotten to where they are today if they lived in a truly economically darwinistic, capitalist, laissez faire world.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                        I think gnk you raise many valid points. What sticks out in my mind is Peter Drucker's observation , that is the multiplier in compensation from what the C level makes to the front line employee. Peter was not against C level making their due but he did observe probably before most of us the growing disparity between these two levels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                          Originally posted by rjwjr
                          Come on, guys. Class warfare rhetoric from iTuliper's? Do you really have a problem with three entertainers who became wealthy and are being proactive in protecting their wealth from confiscatory quasi-socialist actions? You should rethink your posts.
                          Class warfare isn't rhetoric - it is a reality.

                          And I have no problem with these people moving. That's their choice and they're exercising it.

                          I just don't have to respect it either.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                            These things all work out in the end.

                            When the government thinks its bad for us too smoke too much they raise taxes on tobacco to discourage smoking. When the government thinks its bad for us to drink too much they raise the taxes on alcohol to discourage us from overimbibing.

                            Clearly the government of France thinks its citizens are working far too much, and thus they are raising taxes on income to discourage people from spending too many hours in the office. I have every expectation this latest campaign will have the desired effect...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: “Should I be preparing to leave the country?”

                              Morris Berman goes South (or recommends staying with the Monastic Option)


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X