Sikh leader was a hero

[jk]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

i think the problem in describing some as caucasian is that anybody would care.

imagine someone said that it was a misunderstanding that a murderer killed a bunch of people. after all they were blood type a positive.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

some more.

The Garwhalis of far northern India. These people look a lot like the Kalash and may also be a very ancient Caucasian stock, this one probably from the Caucasus itself, which is where the mysterious Kalash arose. Some of these girls could walk down a street in a European city and no one would bat an eye. They could be Spaniards, Greeks, Albanians or Italians, but I am guessing.

And although this guy catches a lot of flack reading him is eye opening on many issues. http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2...ling-of-india/

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

Hope you're feeling better shiny!

Terrible tragedy, and further fodder for the media and the upcoming election campaigns.

While these recent tragedies need to be addressed, I fear too much energy will be shaped and focused on issues such as this event that, in my opinion, are still far lower in importance to the near existential threats to the US posed by the still unresolved and growing FIRE crisis.

Sadly, I suspect that this incident and/or others like it(as I believe we will see a statistical increase in this type of behavior) is an indirect result of the main focus of this forum, which is understanding, adapting to, and surviving the FIRE economy.

While I think it would be a HUGE stretch to blame this on FIRE.......I think the cascading consequences of FIRE.....those 2nd, 3rd, 4th order effects of FIRE is where I think we will see an increase in this type(as well as other types) of unacceptable/abberant behavior in the period ahead.

[flintlock]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

"Race" is always an emotional topic. But why are you offended by a statement that is widely considered to be factually correct?

Unless of course you subscribe to Thomas Huxley's assertion that there is a fourth race called Australoid, and asbelieve that Indians fall into that classification.

I was under the same impression as P of Z, though I could easily be wrong. But to find that offensive is like saying, "I'm offended to be considered caucasian". Now who is being offensive? Race and ethnicity are not necessarily the same thing. Sikhs are certainly different ethnically. I'll leave the racial debate to those fixated on race.

As far as the shooting, it made me sick. I grew up in a town with a small Sikh community and know they are kind people and good citizens. For this imbicile to walk in and start shooting is disgusting. No group deserves this but he could not have been more ignorant of who he was taking his stupidity out on. All these mass shootings, really an embarassment to the US. Why cant some of these nuts just jump off a bridge like they used to?

[astonas]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

I would assert that at least one issue arose when a race was implicitly linked with a religion. A person of any race may, in general, convert to any religion. Thus, to assume that one implies the other is to rely on generalizations, that is to say, stereotypes.

And stereotypes are usually considered offensive by those who are misunderstood through them.

In any event, all of this is getting us far away from what is important here, which is to support Shiny, who has contributed so much grace to these forums, in her time of sorrow.

Shiny, I just wanted to add my voice to those who are thinking of you, and wish you well. Losing a loved one is always heartrending, but when the acts of a racist domestic terrorist return you to that place of grief, the tragedy is certainly greater by far. Please accept my sincere condolences, and know that many are with you (and your community) in spirit in these difficult days.

[srivatsan]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

I have come to suspect anything Westerns say specifically with regard to Race/Ethinicity/Religion since it is always slanted to White Supremacy Thought. I have personally seen those folks who try to demean my culture and spirituality. Yes it is offensive for me to relate to Caucasian word. This is yet another move towards "second class" Indian folks. It was Aryan Invasion theory in 19/20th (now bogus one) and now this one... in 21st. Same old imperalism, new methods and that's all.

I tolerate all people irrespective of my prejudice and work towards harmony because eye for an eye will make World blind.

[don]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

"While we continue to be cautious about rushing to judgment, it is important to note that this is only one of a growing number of incidents of violence that Sikhs have experienced in recent years. Freedom of religion is a fundamental tenet of democracy and it's incredibly sad that victims were shot down while exercising that right in the peace of their gurdwara [place of worship]."

Sapreet Kaur, executive director of the Sikh Coalition

The police identified the gunman as Wade Michael Page, 40, who served in a US army psychological operations unit before he was discharged in 1998 for a pattern of misconduct, including being drunk on duty.

[unlucky]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

One interesting thing to think about is the future of "race trees" such as the one above. Suppose world population stablizes at around 16 billion people. If everyone has 2 kids, then in 34 generations each individual has more than 16 billion descendants. 34 generations corresponds to about 850 years. So in other words, in 850 years everyone on earth will be descended from you (if you have surviving descendants). That includes all of the black, yellow, white, red, etc people. Only a small amount of inter-racial mixing is required to make this work, and historically there has always been plenty.

[shiny!]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

I want to thank everyone for your words of support, not just towards me but for Sikhs in general and the families of those slain. You guys are just the best.

Interestingly, at least to me, one of the Special Ed. teachers who worked with my husband reached out to me yesterday. The shooting affected her the same way; she felt like he had just died again. She said she cried all day at work.

Prodigy- I'm from Texas. I converted to Sikhism 36 years ago when I was 18, when I realized I had always been a Sikh inside but had not had a name for it. My family of origin is of German, Russian, Polish, French, Irish, Jewish and Roman Catholic. This makes me... an American. In spite of all its problems, this is such a great country.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

astonas that is correct. Any person can convert to any religion. That is why my first statement to shiny was a question. Either she is Indian or she converted. She answered and wasn't offended.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

astonas that is correct. Any person can convert to any religion. That is why my first statement to shiny was a question. Either she is Indian or she converted. She answered and wasn't offended.

Shiny is a really nice sweet lady. I am sure she was not offended. Shiny, I know this has been difficult for you, I pray that you will find peace.

[don]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

Sikh is both a religion and a people, two distinctly different entities, much like Jews and Judaism.

the religion:

Islam is based around the belief that Muhammad is the Seal of the prophets. It came into existence in the seventh century and views Jews, Christians and Muslims as "People of the Book", as all three major faiths are part of the Abrahamic religions. Muslims also believe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus were prophets.

Sikhism came into existence in the fifteenth century. It is the fifth-largest organized religion in the world ^{(30 million)} and one of the fastest-growing. The Sikh Gurus (or teachers) have emphasized recognizing all humans as equal before Waheguru,^[3] regardless of colour, caste, race, gender or religion.^[4] The Sikh Gurus did not call themselves prophets. The emphasis is on a single all pervading God and creating a relationship with him. There is no place for intermediaries.

Sikhs embody the qualities of a Sant-Sipahie, a saint-soldier. One must have control over one's internal vices and be able to be constantly immersed in virtues clarified in the Guru Granth Sahib. A Sikh must also have the courage to defend the rights of all who are wrongfully oppressed or persecuted irrespective of religion, colour, caste or creed. Baptized Sikhs are initiated into the Khalsa Panth, the Khalsa is Akal Purakh de fauj - the Army of God. Guru Gobind Singh (10th guru of Sikhism) clearly choose these words very deliberately - He did not state that the Khalsa was the army of the Khalsa or an army of the Sikhs or the army of Punjab - but an Army of God whose function was the protection and safeguarding of all the peoples of God regardless colour, caste, race, gender or religion.

the people, who inhabit the Punjab region, have a rich martial history. Being a national minority in India, they gravitated to their colonizers:


Sikhs in the Indian and British armies


French postcard depicting the arrival of 15th Sikh Regiment in France during World War I.
The postcard reads, "Gentlemen of India marching to chasten the German hooligans".


Sikhs supported the British during the Indian Rebellion of 1857.

By the advent of World War I, Sikhs in the British Indian Army totaled over 100,000, i.e. 20% of the British Indian Army. In the years to 1945, 14 Victoria Crosses were awarded to the Sikhs, a per capita record given the size of the Sikh Regiments. In 2002, the names of all Sikh VC and George Cross winners were inscribed on the pavilion monument of the Memorial Gates on Constitution Hill next to Buckingham palace, London.^[83] Lieutenant Colonel Chanan Singh Dhillon was instrumental in campaigning for the memorial building.

During World War I, Sikh battalions fought in Egypt, Palestine, Mesopotamia, Gallipoli and France. Six battalions of the Sikh Regiment were raised in World War II, and served at El Alamein and in Burma, Italy and Iraq, winning 27 battle honours.

"In the last two world wars 83,005 turban wearing Sikh soldiers were killed and 109,045 were wounded. They all died or were wounded for the freedom of Britain and the world, and during shell fire, with no other protection but the turban, the symbol of their faith."

—General Sir Frank Messervy

"British people are highly indebted and obliged to Sikhs for a long time. I know that within this century we needed their help twice [in two world wars] and they did help us very well. As a result of their timely help, we are today able to live with honour, dignity, and independence. In the war, they fought and died for us, wearing the turbans."
—Sir Winston Churchill

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

Srivatsan it seems you have a personal vendetta agaisnt caucasian people. That is fine with me because everyone is entitled to their own opinion/thought process but please do not try and call me out on the boards and bring this perfectly academic debate into the realm of "white supremacy thought."

With your first line of thought it seems that you do not tolerate all people if you have come to think "all westerners have white supremacy thought."

If I were a reactionary person I would call that offensive. I am not offended by that statement at all, as it is your thought/feelings and everyone is entitled to them. I know that many Indians harbour resentment toward the British and other westerners for the hundreds of years spent under occupied rule but I ask this

"do you harbour resentment and hatred toward the invading Arabs (Mughal dynasty) from the 13th to 16th centuries? "

My initial thought is that you do not. The reason? It was so long ago that Islam is now ingrained in your society/culture. If the British occupation had occured 500 years ago for the most part Indians would harbour no resentment at all.

I can test this theory. Do the Anglo's harbour resentment of the French Normans? Do the Anglos harbour resentment of the Nordic Saxons? Do Spaniards harbour resentment of the Muslims/Moors who conquered and controlled them for 700 years?

Does all of North Africa and the Levant harbour resentment of the Arabs from the Arabian peninsula since they slaughtered, conquered their native peoples and forcibly converted them to Islam from 650 AD to 1452 AD ?

I can go on and on throughout history. The only difference is that the westerner/British occupation of India occurred within the last 150 years which makes it fresh in the history books and minds of the people of the nation. It also does not help that there is a clear difference in the visible features of the Brits and Indians. Mostly just skin color.

Here is the natural thought process of modern humans: If white individual X kills white individual Y because that person dislikes the other one it is a horrible crime. If white individual X kills black/different race individual Y because that person dislikes the other one then it is a hate crime or white supremacy thought (as you stated).

Do you see the problem with thinking this way?

Anyway I rather enjoy the Indian culture especially the Holy day celebration. Indian culture is one of the oldest, complex and fascinating in the world.

I also heard that the higher classes in India are now the ones who for political reasons reject "Aryan Invasion Theory" as they don't want to be seen as conquerers to the southern Dravidians. Interestingly the untouchable class are the ones who are the biggest proponents of Aryan Invasion Theory.

Back to Shiny, I don't want to move this thread away from it's original intent.

[ProdigyofZen]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

Thanks great Shiny, I encourage anyone to convert to whatever they believe is true.

One of my Sikh friends always remarks to me "if it wasnt for the Sikhs fighting all the Indians would have been conquered!"

My impression is that they were the warrior class of India. They do carry around the Kirpan although for religious reasons.

[shiny!]

Re: Sikh leader was a hero

Shiny is a really nice sweet lady. I am sure she was not offended. Shiny, I know this has been difficult for you, I pray that you will find peace.

Oh no, not offended at all. And I'm feeling a little better today. I'm sure it's because of all the kind prayers coming my way.

My husband was also a convert. One time when we were out walking, a truck drove by and slowed down. The driver leaned out the window and shouted, "Why don't you go back where you came from!" Without missing a beat my husband answered, "You mean Michigan?" The look on the driver's face was priceless.