"Nothing to see here..."

[Raz]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

That's okay with me. Personally, I believe in non-spiritual reincarnation and that we will have this conversation an infinite amount of times in the future. Also, I do not believe a truly benevolent god would demand worship.

The Triune God is perfect within Himself and has no need of anyone or anything for completeness. He does NOT demand worship, but He does demand fidelity of those who follow Him. (As a husband expects and demands faithfullness of his wife, and the wife of her husband.)

Proof that this is true is the very fact that as an atheist you're still breathing. He does not force anyone to believe in Him ("Love (agape) does not insist upon its own way". I Corinthians 13:5), or follow Him, OR worship Him. Those who faithfully follow Him do indeed worship Him for what He has done for them. It is out of love and gratitude.

Perhaps you could begin a thread on Rant-n-Rave to tell me more about this god you don't believe in. I probably don't believe in him either!

[littleshark]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

I tried to bring the thread back to the Palin interview. This religious stuff is freakin' me out a little here. I have faith!

[BadJuju]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

I tried to bring the thread back to the Palin interview. This religious stuff is freakin' me out a little here. I have faith!

I'll create a thread in rant and rave to encompass this split topic later tonight! Not to worry.

As for Palin herself, I still think she is a sham. She is either the person that has been portrayed in writing and interviews or she has sold out to FIRE and should go down with the rest of them.

[Jill Nephew]

Re: Sexual revolution: full steam Ahead, thank God! (or Darwin!)

At the risk of hijacking this thread - i will have to say, this is a rich, rich topic. I currently am in 'the land of sodom and gammorah' - San Francisco Bay Area. There is a lot of confusion and pain around 'sexual freedom' that i have witnessed here since my birth (late 60's). Mating has been a competitive venture for some time. I don't know how simple it is to separate out nature versus nurture on this one. But it does strike me that 'romantic' fantasies tend to include a joint venture of some sort to the exclusion of everyone else. So as long as such ventures are meaningful between two people (and not 3, or 4?) we will probably have a competitive model.
I have often thought about starting an orphanage with a group of like minded friends. It seems a superior model to child-rearing in some ways as the ups and downs and load is distributed. Is that a valid 'substitute' for the romantic dream of a nuclear family with my own progeny? Not sure...

[lektrode]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

.... still think she is a sham. She is either the person that has been portrayed in writing and interviews or she has sold out to FIRE and should go down with the rest of them.

uhhh... du`ude?

she doesnt mouth the words of a FIre-sellout - the SELL-OUTS look like this:



--------

and this:



-----------

and this:



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and this:



and what those who want to paint palin as some kind of moron are in denial of is this:

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Sexual revolution: full steam Ahead, thank God! (or Darwin!)

I have often thought about starting an orphanage with a group of like minded friends. It seems a superior model to child-rearing in some ways as the ups and downs and load is distributed.

--Jill Nephew

It was precisely the strength of the group that propelled our ancestors to the top of the food chain in every continent except antarctica. The level of cooperation and sharing in pre-historic groups was very high and brought success in hunting, child rearing and solving other problems. This can still be observed in the few remaining hunter-gatherer groups. Human nature is fundamentally cooperative. The competitiveness we see is largely an adaptation to modern economic conditions. And the societies which are highly cooperative, like Japan and Scandanavia, have very high living standards and low crime.

[Raz]

Re: Sexual revolution: full steam Ahead, thank God! (or Darwin!)

[QUOTE=Polish_Silver;234642]--Jill Nephew

It was precisely the strength of the group that propelled our ancestors to the top of the food chain in every continent except antarctica. The level of cooperation and sharing in pre-historic groups was very high and brought success in hunting, child rearing and solving other problems. This can still be observed in the few remaining hunter-gatherer groups. Human nature is fundamentally cooperative. The competitiveness we see is largely an adaptation to modern economic conditions. And the societies which are highly cooperative, like Japan and Scandanavia, have very high living standards and low crime.[/QUOTE]

True enough. But, aren't the aforementioned societies racially, culturally and socially homogenous, at least to a very large degree?
Perhaps that is a huge factor in their cooperativeness?

[doom&gloom]

Re: Sexual revolution: full steam Ahead, thank God! (or Darwin!)

and MUCH smaller than the US to boot.

[jabberwocky]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

An interesting perspective to read. The concentration of power was purposefully impeded by the constitution, so it has not been everpresent. Robert Higgs wrote about this in "Leviathon", if I recall corectly. Not to forget Hobbes, of course!
Bear in mind that you are the child of this circumstance, and, hence, may not appreciate the change that has occurred in western societies over time. It is certainly true that progress has charactorized developement in the "developed " world since the enlightenment, but societies wither over time, and with wealth. Read Cicero, or Gibbon, or Schopenhauer. The world may still improve, but I think not so much the US, or the west. I can think of no aspect of our society that is not riven with rent seeking, and deceit. Church? Academia? (Penn State), sports/entertainment? Government? Banking? Healthcare?
The track record of atheists isn't so good either. Maoism, Stalinism, etc. It is the HUMAN condition, not the particular frame of reference that matters.
I certainly hope your "faith" and optimism prove some of us naught but old curmudgeons.

[shiny!]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

This is a fantastic thread... D&G's original charts, lektrode's funnies, and the thought that we might get a Sarah Palin interview. Not that I agree with Sarah Palin on everything (she's more socially conservative than I am), but I've long felt that there's been a concerted effort to make her a laughing stock, to make her politically irrelevant because she has it in for FIRE.

I love iTulip.

[flintlock]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

+1.

X2. The USA has been in decay for some time now. The ethics of even very mainstream US leaders and companies would not have made the cut 20 or 30 years ago. And it wasnt that great then either. What has changed the most has been a general willingness to accept shady people in positions of power. They have always existed, only now the general public is more aware they are led by scumbags. They just dont seem to care, which I attest to a general decline in character of the people as a whole. The bar has been lowered and more today really believe ethics dont matter. Especially if there is money to be made. Money And fame trumps most anything today.

[BadJuju]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

X2. The USA has been in decay for some time now. The ethics of even very mainstream US leaders and companies would not have made the cut 20 or 30 years ago. And it wasnt that great then either. What has changed the most has been a general willingness to accept shady people in positions of power. They have always existed, only now the general public is more aware they are led by scumbags. They just dont seem to care, which I attest to a general decline in character of the people as a whole. The bar has been lowered and more today really believe ethics dont matter. Especially if there is money to be made. Money trumps most anything today.

It is terrible. What is even worse is how obvious the charlatanism is and how rife politics is with corruption. It is directly in your face these days. Politicians run on platforms of complete and utter lies that can be fact-checked in one second, yet they chug right along while brushing any criticism right off their shoulder like they would dust. It is not like these things are occurring in back rooms. And that scares me even more to think of what the hell they are saying and doing outside the prying eyes of the public.

[flintlock]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

I think it is unfair to say we are facing moral and spiritual decay. That has been said for thousands of years now. As a whole, the world is a much nicer place than it once was. We don't even have to look far to see how bad things were just a century or so ago.

As an atheist, all I see is the same crap that has repeated itself countless times over history. Power being concentrated in the hands of a few while everyone else is hung out to dry.

Agree the world is a better place than 1000 years ago. Or even 150 perhaps. Or even 50 . What many people may be refering to is the contrast between now and more recent times (50s-70s?). Evil has always existed, but I cant remember the level of corruption today, nor the general acceptance of shady behavior, on such a grand scale. At least the crooks had the sense to be more discrete back in "the good old days". I think the moral decay in our leaders is simply a result of the general decay of society. Has nothing to do necessarily with religion. Unless someone thinks society doesnt need any ethical standards, in which case they are sorely mistaken. Unfortunately many people equate rejection of religion with rejecting everything it stands for. As if to share common beliefs is contrary to their principles. I think a lot of society has thrown out the concept of ethical behavior in their rush to reject religion. And the results are obvious. A lot of Christian teachings, for example, are based on good advice for life in general. Dont steal, dont mess with your neighbors wife. Good advice regardless.

[BadJuju]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

One of the biggest hurdles is how faceless everything is these days. Back centuries ago, you could easily see who was oppressing you. Now that oppression comes from many different places and not all involve the boot of a fellow human on your throat. And I think that empowers TPTB and allows corruption to flourish even more because people cannot directly pin their suffering on them anymore. It gives them deniability.

[BadJuju]

Re: "Nothing to see here..."

Agree the world is a better place than 1000 years ago. Or even 150 perhaps. Or even 50 . What many people may be refering to is the contrast between now and more recent times (50s-70s?). Evil has always existed, but I cant remember the level of corruption today, nor the general acceptance of shady behavior. At least the crooks had the sense to be more discrete back in "the good old days".

I am rather young, so I have only ever known the kind of politics we deal with today. I don't know if things were more or less corrupt back then. In the very least, the corruption that was there was much more contained. I am very thankful for the Internet, though. It has really opened my eyes to the world. Maybe the corruption was always there, but the lack of an apparatus for seeing it easily was just not there. Now we can hop on and check the facts for everything anyone says. We can go back to the day they were born and know what they have said or done after that point with incredible ease.

Society has a cancer and it has metastasized.