7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

[BadJuju]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Goedel showed that all closed systems depend on something outside them (ie faith or assumption).

Syllogism:

1. All non-trivial computational systems are incomplete
2. The universe is a non-trivial computational system
3. Therefore, the universe is incomplete

Hence, the universe depends on something outside itself.

If we go far enough, such as to why there is anything as opposed to nothing, there is probably never going to be an answer. It is simply outside of our ability to quantify and qualify as it requires being outside of it, which is impossible. That does not mean there has to be a godly mover or some metaphysical cause. All of it can arise from natural origins, but the definition of natural is probably much more amorphous than we have come to accept. The more I have delved into physics, the more I have come to realize that our universe probably isn't unique. This universe is probably one of many and the others could be very different from our own with their own laws. Perhaps the core of the multiverse is chaos incarnate.

None of what I say here really constitutes anything more than a rant now that I have finished with it. :P

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

If we go far enough, such as to why there is anything as opposed to nothing, there is probably never going to be an answer. It is simply outside of our ability to quantify and qualify as it requires being outside of it, which is impossible. That does not mean there has to be a godly mover or some metaphysical cause. All of it can arise from natural origins, but the definition of natural is probably much more amorphous than we have come to accept. The more I have delved into physics, the more I have come to realize that our universe probably isn't unique. This universe is probably one of many and the others could be very different from our own with their own laws. Perhaps the core of the multiverse is chaos incarnate.

None of what I say here really constitutes anything more than a rant now that I have finished with it. :P

I agree with much of what you say, but in particular with that which is bolded. My point is that science rests in faith of some unproveble truths, and therefore secularism falls short, even it we're not talking about God when referencing faith.

I'll leave you with a reference to one of my favorite Goedel exchanges....

At a faculty dinner at the Intitute [of Advanced Studies at Princeton] the young John Bahcall, having introduced himself as a new astrophysicist on the faculty, was taken aback when Goedel replied flatly that he didn't believe in natural science. By Goedel's light, physics had taken the wrong turn centuries ago when it chose to follow the path laid by the naturalistically minded British empiricst Isaac Newton, rather than that of the German idealist Gottfried Leibniz. Goedel's fascination with Leibniz was boundless, prompting a mathematical colleague, Paul Erdos, to offer a rebuke: "You became a mathematician," he told Goedel, "so that people should study you, not that you should study Leibniz." Goedel even succeeded in transferring his own paranoia to Leibniz, arguing at length that some of his hero's crucial manuscripts had been destroyed by "those who do not want man to become more intelligent." "You have a vicarious persecution complex," replied his friend Karl Menger, "on Leibniz's behalf." Menger, like most intellectuals a child of the Enlightenment, went on to ask why none of Voltaire's papers had been destroyed. "Who ever became more intelligent," Goedel answered, "by reading Voltaire?"

A World Without Time: The Foregotten Legacy of Goedel & Einstein, page 15
http://books.google.com/books?id=tuA-cY_6HZkC&pg=PA15

[touchring]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I still think that this all has to do with the new leadership transition... and still foresee some kind of uprising that may not be as bloody as 1989 but more publicized...

There might not be an uprising as a fellow forumer here says, it will be crushed with mercilessly.

One thing for sure, life is not going to be good for countries neighboring China. China is more of the Roman empire than the USA. The New World Order is not going to be a bed of roses.

[BadJuju]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I agree with much of what you say, but in particular with that which is bolded. My point is that science rests in faith of some unproveble truths, and therefore secularism falls short, even it we're not talking about God when referencing faith.

This is a point of contention for me with people. I am a skeptic, but I am open to new ideas. I believe that nothing is impossible until proven otherwise. Some skeptics, on the other hand, take things too far and dismiss things outright unless it has been proven already or supported by our current understanding of the universe. There is as much danger in being too skeptical as there is in not being skeptical enough. Much of the knowledge we have come to possess has been in opposition to beliefs that were contemporary to those discoveries. People want to see things in black and white as much as possible. It is either absolute or not to them. This extends to all fields of life, whether morality or science. Regardless, the search for truth should be of utmost importance to people.

[evangellydonut]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

So, is this piece meant to help institigate an uprising, or was it simply a case of new leadership not taking the relevant bribes?

I think it's more of a sign that internal power struggles, like Bo Xilai is causing a riff within the CCP, and that's resulting in less control over the general population in an era of the internet. "My dad is Li Gang" is another sign of the loss of control, and people will find more ways to bring forward controversy and local governments.

There might not be an uprising as a fellow forumer here says, it will be crushed with mercilessly.

One thing for sure, life is not going to be good for countries neighboring China. China is more of the Roman empire than the USA. The New World Order is not going to be a bed of roses.

I think that depends on how much the CCP pisses off the military... There's been some recent articles regarding how the CCP now wants to audit properties owned by top military officials, pot calling the kettle black... 1989 was by some accounts, a military clash with students as pawns.

There's been no shortage of boarder disputes with its neighbors, but I don't see China aggressively provoke any neighbors to instigate war. The military is still a paper-tiger like it was in the Qing Dynasty. If it were truly competent and aggressive, there wouldn't be a "Taiwan."

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I think it's more of a sign that internal power struggles, like Bo Xilai is causing a riff within the CCP, and that's resulting in less control over the general population in an era of the internet. "My dad is Li Gang" is another sign of the loss of control, and people will find more ways to bring forward controversy and local governments.

Interesting. Thanks.

[flintlock]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

The powerful have been crapping on people since the beginning of recorded time, regardless of religious or political affliation. My conclusions after studying world history as a hobby for most of my life, are this never changes. Perhaps the severity changes, but not the general principal. Plenty of blame to go around. I will say some philosophies tend to become Totalitarian systems more readily than others.

[reggie]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

The powerful have been crapping on people since the beginning of recorded time, regardless of religious or political affliation. My conclusions after studying world history as a hobby for most of my life, are this never changes. Perhaps the severity changes, but not the general principal. Plenty of blame to go around. I will say some philosophies tend to become Totalitarian systems more readily than others.

I agree, but the issue for me is understanding the "Technique" (see Jacque Ellul), which I believe is largely underestimated in its breath and complexity, especially by educated folks who confuse system familiarity and indoctrination with intelligence and awareness.