7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

[touchring]

Is this the New World Order everyone is wishing for?

Graphic images posted online showing the bloody corpse of a baby whose mother was allegedly forced to terminate her pregnancy at seven months have caused an uproar in China.

Rights groups say authorities in north China's Shaanxi province forced Feng Jianmei to abort her pregnancy on June 2 because she was unable to pay a 40,000 yuan ($6,270) fine for exceeding China's 'one-child' population control policy.

Authorities in Zhenping county, where the abortion took place, said that Feng had agreed to the procedure, but a relative told that she and her husband had opposed the abortion.

The relative, who asked not to be named, also confirmed the authenticity of a photograph posted online of Feng on a hospital bed next to the blood-smeared body of her baby.

Outraged Chinese web users expressed doubt that Feng had agreed to the abortion, and even state-run media outlets condemned the procedure.

"Who would ever drop a bleeding baby beside its mother?" posted one Chinese web user on Internet news portal Netease.com.

"This is what they say the Japanese devils and Nazis did. But it's happening in reality and it is by no means the only case... They (the officials) should be executed."

Another web user, posting on popular forum clubkdnet.net, said China's family planning system had been "openly killing people for years in the name of national policy" adding: "What is wrong with society?"

China has implemented its draconian family planning policy since the late 1970s in an effort to control a population that has grown to 1.3 billion people, the world's largest.

Under the policy, urban families are generally allowed to have one child, while rural families can give birth to two children if the first is a girl.

"Feng Jianmei's story demonstrates how the one-child policy continues to sanction violence against women every day," said Chai Ling, head of the US-based rights group All Girls Allowed.

China's official media also condemned the case, but said the controversial family planning policy should remain in place.

A commentary in the state-run Global Times newspaper said in English that late-term forced abortions should be "condemned and banned," but that they "shouldn't be a reason for refuting the whole (one child) policy".

Officials at Zhenping county hospital, where the abortion allegedly took place, refused comment.

Warning, link has graphic image!
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/chann...roar-china-300

[Mega]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

This is what i mean by China will NOT lose control...........if it is required to drive a tank over rioters in the streets they WILL do so. I am not fan of this, but how many people where killed by NATO this week?
Mike

[touchring]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

This is what i mean by China will NOT lose control...........if it is required to drive a tank over rioters in the streets they WILL do so. I am not fan of this, but how many people where killed by NATO this week?
Mike

Let's put it this way, more people were killed in China since the communist takeover than Hilter's WWII.

Still wanna compare NATO with CCP?

[c1ue]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Let's put it this way, more people were killed in China since the communist takeover than Hilter's WWII.

Perhaps you can put some numbers behind this statement.

[shiny!]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

To be accurate, it was a 7 month-old fetus, not a 7 month-old baby. Still absolutely terrible, but different. I wouldn't be surprised to someday learn that they commit infanticide as well in cases where parents are over the limit.

On a separate note, aren't they going to have a big problem at some point of having too few young people working to support too many old people?

[Milton Kuo]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

To be accurate, it was a 7 month-old fetus, not a 7 month-old baby. Still absolutely terrible, but different. I wouldn't be surprised to someday learn that they commit infanticide as well in cases where parents are over the limit.

There have been news stories published which document that infanticide and worse occurs in China. Every news story I have read indicates that the babies and children that are killed are overwhelmingly females, the result of Chinese society short-sightedly preferring male children over female children.

You can even see the preference for male children in foreigners' adoption of Chinese babies. Every Chinese I've seen adopted by American parents is a daughter.

The tremendous gender imbalance in the population bodes ill for China as large numbers of unmarried young men, who will stay unmarried because they cannot find brides, typically results in some sort of social unrest such as war.

[shiny!]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

There have been news stories published which document that infanticide and worse occurs in China. Every news story I have read indicates that the babies and children that are killed are overwhelmingly females, the result of Chinese society short-sightedly preferring male children over female children.

You can even see the preference for male children in foreigners' adoption of Chinese babies. Every Chinese I've seen adopted by American parents is a daughter.

The tremendous gender imbalance in the population bodes ill for China as large numbers of unmarried young men, who will stay unmarried because they cannot find brides, typically results in some sort of social unrest such as war.

This is going on in India as well. It's not the young mens' fault that their parents were idiots. Sadly, once they become a demographic inconvenience they will make excellent cannon fodder.

[Raz]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Perhaps you can put some numbers behind this statement.

I recall two sources giving the number of deaths directly attributed to the Chinese Communists of Mao and Chou at 80,000,000+.

They were found in two books I read back in the 1970s and 80s. I'll try to look them up for you, but it may take awhile as a friend of ours died yesterday
and I won't have much free time until this weekend.

[shiny!]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Raz, I'm sorry for your loss. I wish you and your friend's family comfort in this time and many happy memories.

[c1ue]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I recall two sources giving the number of deaths directly attributed to the Chinese Communists of Mao and Chou at 80,000,000+.

I could probably guess the names of the books, but in reality those numbers are outrageously overblown. A lot of Chinese definitely died, but the problem is that uncounted Chinese died even before the Communists took over.

From 1900 to 1945 - i.e. the 50 years prior to the Communist takeover - there were at least 5 major famines.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the 6th Chinese famine of the 20th century was made worse by attempts at collectivization, but anti-Communist politicization plus better record keeping by the Communists is a clear driving factor in the ever expanding number of victims of Mao and Chou En Lai. This is especially true given the massive changes to everyday health care brought about by the Communists.

For example: one of the reasons why the famine of 1958-1961 was so bad was due to the massive decrease in infant mortality (over 2%/20 per 1,000 live births) in the prior 15 years due to widespread education via a nurse practitioner training cadre.

Thus to me, comparing the effects of a serious climatologically induced famine (the source of the vast majority of the large numbers of deaths associated with Mao/Chou En Lai), made worse by poor policies, in a nation which had experienced 5 famines just in the previous 50 years, with the war casualties of World War II in Europe... I just don't see it.

[Raz]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

I could probably guess the names of the books, but in reality those numbers are outrageously overblown. A lot of Chinese definitely died, but the problem is that uncounted Chinese died even before the Communists took over.

From 1900 to 1945 - i.e. the 50 years prior to the Communist takeover - there were at least 5 major famines.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the 6th Chinese famine of the 20th century was made worse by attempts at collectivization, but anti-Communist politicization plus better record keeping by the Communists is a clear driving factor in the ever expanding number of victims of Mao and Chou En Lai. This is especially true given the massive changes to everyday health care brought about by the Communists.

For example: one of the reasons why the famine of 1958-1961 was so bad was due to the massive decrease in infant mortality (over 2%/20 per 1,000 live births) in the prior 15 years due to widespread education via a nurse practitioner training cadre.

Thus to me, comparing the effects of a serious climatologically induced famine (the source of the vast majority of the large numbers of deaths associated with Mao/Chou En Lai), made worse by poor policies, in a nation which had experienced 5 famines just in the previous 50 years, with the war casualties of World War II in Europe... I just don't see it.

Have a look at this and perhaps you might have reason to "see it".

http://web.mac.com/dikotter/Dikotter...at_Famine.html

The crimes of the Communists in the 20th Century are massive and historic. The Roman church has greater guilt for its crimes because, of all the earth, it should have known better. But the Inquisition looks like a small riot in an ancient hamlet compared to the murders and other crimes committed by Stalin and Mao Zedung.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/09/op...rsky_ed3_.html

[c1ue]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

http://web.mac.com/dikotter/Dikotter...at_Famine.html

Indeed, Dikotter is exactly one of the names I was expecting.

And to be clear, the work he has done is great. However, the error being made here is that Dikotter and his fans make the implicit assumption that the events of the Great Famine were 100% avoidable.

It is like saying a drunk driver crashed into and killed a pedestrian because he drank rum, when in fact it is the fact that this person was a habitual drunkard that is the proximate cause. Taking away rum wouldn't have fixed the problem; equally so China being non-Communist would not have avoided the Great Famine - as the 5 famines during the 'democratic' era of China's government from 1905 to 1945 shows. Of these 5, only the last could be attributed to outside factors (i.e. WW II).

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/09/op...rsky_ed3_.html

Meh.

Mao was a terrible person, no doubt.

But the same reality also shows that Mao took a 3rd world nation which was dominated by outside powers and both unified and strengthened it.

We should not forget that Mao was a very astute and pragmatic politician. It was from his quote "
‘Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.’ where the term "the worse, the better" came from.

Ultimately what history judges is: was China better or worse off from his intervention?

As someone who has ethnic and historical ties to China, I am far more conversant with how bad things were for most Chinese prior to the Communists/Mao. That doesn't excuse the terrible things Mao did, but it does explain why he was able to: most Chinese were so badly abused by the so called 'democratic' government and society that they wanted the whole system torn down.

Note that I say this as the descendant of one of the groups that was driven out of China on threat of being "re-educated". Life was pretty sweet for my grandparents in China, but it was pretty awful for almost everyone else.

[touchring]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/09/op...rsky_ed3_.html

The lesson is that a crazy dictator can inflict more damage than any imperialism.

[Raz]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

Indeed, Dikotter is exactly one of the names I was expecting.

Dikotter was not the work I remembered in my original post. The book I remembered was written in the late 1970s - not long after the "Great Agrarian Reformer" died.

Meh.

Mao was a terrible person, no doubt.

But the same reality also shows that Mao took a 3rd world nation which was dominated by outside powers and both unified and strengthened it.

We should not forget that Mao was a very astute and pragmatic politician. It was from his quote "
‘Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.’ where the term "the worse, the better" came from.

Ultimately what history judges is: was China better or worse off from his intervention?

As someone who has ethnic and historical ties to China, I am far more conversant with how bad things were for most Chinese prior to the Communists/Mao. That doesn't excuse the terrible things Mao did, but it does explain why he was able to: most Chinese were so badly abused by the so called 'democratic' government and society that they wanted the whole system torn down.

Note that I say this as the descendant of one of the groups that was driven out of China on threat of being "re-educated". Life was pretty sweet for my grandparents in China, but it was pretty awful for almost everyone else.

There is more than one "judge" of history. Lenin said that in order to make an omelet you must crack a few eggs.
Stalin said that one death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is only a statistic.

I have a completely different world view: I see each human being as not simply a product of evolutionary chance, but originally a creature of design. Even planned evolution, some might say, but not a random occurence eminating out of chaos. Lenin and Stalin were pitiless, had no respect for any human life but their own, and in the final analysis they cared little for the poor, but only for their ideology. The only thing that mattered to them was their "vision".

They were monsters, and Mao belongs with them.

[c1ue]

Re: 7 month old baby forcibly aborted in China caused an uproar

There is more than one "judge" of history. Lenin said that in order to make an omelet you must crack a few eggs.
Stalin said that one death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is only a statistic.

I have a completely different world view: I see each human being as not simply a product of evolutionary chance, but originally a creature of design. Even planned evolution, some might say, but not a random occurence eminating out of chaos. Lenin and Stalin were pitiless, had no respect for any human life but their own, and in the final analysis they cared little for the poor, but only for their ideology. The only thing that mattered to them was their "vision".

They were monsters, and Mao belongs with them.

I actually agree with your viewpoint, but I think you are missing what I am saying.

What I'm saying is that the numbers of deaths attributed to Mao cannot be accurate unless you understand what likely would have happened in a world without Mao.

For every person who died directly because of Mao, how many others were saved because their village was no longer subject to feudal rule, kept without even rudimentary medical knowledge, and had no local much less national infrastructure to support/protect/nurture them?

This doesn't excuse Mao's actions - particularly later in his life when his near deification in China's politics permitted all sorts of poor policies originating in Mao's not always correct views.

But for me, the one sided inflation of deaths accorded to Mao is not accurate as it discounts the inflation in human potential brought about by his presence.

The history of China from the 1800s onward until the Communist takeover was marred by tremendous suffering over and beyond what was 'normal' for that time - in no small part to the destruction of Chinese sovereignty in the interests of evening out the British balance of trade.

It is no different than the Reformation and Counter-Reformation of the Catholic Church: millions died due to the subsequent politically motivated religious wars, but the reality is that without Luther, Calvin, and others, the Catholic Church would not be what it is today.