Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

[radon]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

"Eyferth studied the out-of-wedlock children of black and white soldiers stationed in Germany after World War 2 and then raised by white German mothers and found no significant differences."

All fathers would have been filtered by the Army General Classification Test. It sounds more like an argument for a genetic basis rather than against.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

All fathers would have been filtered by the Army General Classification Test. It sounds more like an argument for a genetic basis rather than against.

or just the opposite..."The rejection of black units could not always be ascribed to racism alone. With some justification the arms and services tried to restrict the number and distribution of Negroes because black units measured far below their white counterparts in educational achievement and ability to absorb training, according to the Army General Classification Test (AGCT)."

http://www.history.army.mil/books/in...-02.htm#TABLE1

[charliebrown]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

I had some cognitive psycology classes in school.

My instructor was fond of saying genetics plays a role in intelligence but the bell curve is very wide. Given lack luster genes, but a good environment and hard work the laggard can out think people with a good pedigree, but poor environment and no hard work.

Here is an interesting study that we looked at. The Minnesota twins study. This study tries to compare intelligence of identical twins reared apart. There are some manipulation of the data to try to account for environmental conditions.
Findings are the twins intelligence correlated at about 70%

http://web.missouri.edu/~segerti/1000H/Bouchard.pdf

Note what this study does not state at all is that race or national origin or gender etc correlate with intelligence. Just that people with identical genetic makeup have correlated intelligences.

[metalman]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

A distinction without a difference.

But if it makes a difference to you, then: I object to the POLICY that allows immigrants from low-IQ, incompatible populations to emigrate here.

There, is that better?

Heck, I don't think we need any immigrants at all. If they want a "better life" then they are exactly the people who should stay in their own homelands and change them for the better.

this thread started off great... then went terribly wrong.

you took it there.

never thought i'd see the itulip crew engaged in such an idiotic race & immigration argument... again...

brings out the racists & bigots every time.

what makes you think every member of this community is a white male such as yourself? what gives you the right to insult the rest of us here?

any fool knows that research that proves differences in intelligence within any race is larger than difference between any two races. only ignorant racists & bigots refute it.

the usa is 99% immigrants... the original inhabitants now a puny minority.

americans came here in waves to escape bondage or serfdom or starvation or conscription.

each wave was greeted with hostility from the earlier waves that were assimilated as americans... the germans, slavs, irish, japanese...

read this immigration timeline to educate yourself...

ignorance & fear over immigration is older than the republic...

1751: Benjamin Franklin worries about German immigrants, writing, "This Pennsylvania will in a few years become a German colony; instead of [their] learning our language, we must learn theirs, or live as in a foreign country."

when your group came over they got labelled low iq & incompatible at the time... guaranteed.
itulip is the place where we try to fight ignorance not spread it.

[charliebrown]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

great post Mr. Metal.

[Raz]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

this thread started off great... then went terribly wrong.

you took it there.

never thought i'd see the itulip crew engaged in such an idiotic race & immigration argument... again...

brings out the racists & bigots every time.

While you're at it, please vet my posts below and inform me whether or not i'm a racist.

I'd like to be certain that the questions I asked and the statements I agreed with conform to iTulip concepts of truth and decency.

[metalman]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

While you're at it, please vet my posts below and inform me whether or not i'm a racist.

I'd like to be certain that the questions I asked and the statements I agreed with conform to iTulip concepts of truth and decency.

didn't see any comments from you that set me off. you & i see eye to eye on most areas.

itulip ain't a middle aged christian white guys club... some of us are decidedly darker & speak with a foreign accent.

surprised fred hasn't deep 6'd this thread by now for violations of the mutual respect rule.

[Raz]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

Aye. But I should be at an average disadvantage from conception, no? So on average, compared to someone at the same point on the curve from almost any other European country, I should lose. At least there should be a large population of Englishmen that could best me, regardless of how high up on the curve I am.

I use the Irish example not simply because I'm one of them, but more specifically, because that prejudice is almost gone. Most people simply no longer believe that the Irish are a stupid, chimp-like race. So what changed?

But it is not lost on me that the primary book that supports the modern racial IQ hypothesis happens to be written by a British professor at the University of Ulster (Northern Ireland).

That an Englishman in Northern Ireland would commission a study that finds the Irish dimwitted and well below the mean of intelligence doesn't surprise me. They've been doing that for hundreds of years, culminating in the attempted genocide of the 1840s and 50s.

What does surprise me is that people buy such nonsense.

Firstly, there is almost no genetic dimorphism between the Irish and the English populations at this point. Throw some DNA into the gene sequencer, and you can tell with some probability whether someone's from the British Isles vs. Russia etc., but it is nearly impossible to tell an Englishman from an Irishman, despite what each would like to believe.

Secondly, even among the populations in England, maternal mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome haplogroups seem to indicate that influences from the Anglo-Saxons seem to account for only about 20% of genetic material in England, and Norman DNA only for about 2%. The remaining majority of the population looks genetically identical to the Basque/Pict/Celtic data, likely suggesting that the isles were heavily populated by these groups and were never fully taken over during invasion genetically, but rather simply, politically.

So I fundamentally question the efficacy of a study that purports to link IQ to genetics when it fundamentally discounts genetics and instead uses national boundaries, as if people have not been breeding across borders for millennia.

If you want to link IQ and genetics, you can't do it on basis of nationality or self-reported ethnicity. You have to do it by testing random samples (individuals), then sequencing their genes, and following DNA haplogroups. If you do it simply based on self-identified race or national borders, you're doing shoddy science. And when shoddy science is used to tell one group they're superior and another group they're inferior, then I can be pretty sure you're publishing politics rather than science. And that brand of politics often leads to people getting hurt.

If and, more probably, when someone does the such a study properly, I'll be interested to look at the results. But there are still problems with the IQ test itself, that I think are unresolved.

I want to make it crystal clear where I'm coming from: Being a simple man from red-state "fly-over country" I attempt to support and defend the obvious.
I'm definitely not erudite in the subject of genetics.

Hair color, eye color, height, etc. clearly runs in families. And so does mental illness. Therefore it would seem to me that intelligence could also run in families. And if it does then there is likely to be a genetic component - somewhere. But whenever I've mentioned this to relatives from California or in-laws from Massachusetts I receive the following question with poisoned politeness: "You're not a racist, are you?"

For this reason among others I'm not quick to assume Flynn is a racist. And I've read the Wickipedia article that Thailandnotes suggested.
Your comment about haplogroups makes sense but I remain unconvinced that there is no genetic component to intelligence.

Having said that, genetics does NOT equal race. None of us are likely to be "racially pure" due to the mixture of tribes (?) over millenia.

Even if it should happen to be so, being Orthodox requires me to be "my brother's keeper", and if I should be more intelligent, for whatever reason, or more prosperous, etc., that would only increase my accountability for my actions toward "the least of these"; not serve as a reason to lord it over them with some idea of supremacy.

All human beings are clearly not of equal ability, but ALL human beings are of equal worth to their Creator.

[Raz]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

The wiki article "Race and Intelligence" is a good read. The above point becomes crystal clear...

"Eyferth studied the out-of-wedlock children of black and white soldiers stationed in Germany after World War 2 and then raised by white German mothers and found no significant differences."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

Good article.

And this one is also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstr...n_Intelligence

[radon]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

or just the opposite..."The rejection of black units could not always be ascribed to racism alone. With some justification the arms and services tried to restrict the number and distribution of Negroes because black units measured far below their white counterparts in educational achievement and ability to absorb training, according to the Army General Classification Test (AGCT)."

http://www.history.army.mil/books/in...-02.htm#TABLE1

The number of them and physical distribution would not matter so long as there are enough to provide a sufficient sample size and they were in Germany at the same time as their white counterparts. If you are working with the hypothesis that cognitive ability can be inherited one way to falsify it would be to screen for that trait. Then measure the intelligence of the descendants. I'm not familiar with the study you cited involving the German mothers, but it sounded like that. And if the results, uniform IQ scores, are accurate it doesn't falsify it. Quite the opposite.

[Woodsman]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

I think the "Talk" page on both of these articles is far more instructive than the content of the articles themselves.

This sort argument shifts oh-so imperceptibly back and forth between sociology and genetics and where it lands usually has more to do with the politics and perceptions of the volks making the argument. I don't see the point in it.

Eugenics, racial hiearchy theory, and racial ideologies made ruin of the world some 75 years ago and brought untold suffering to millions. Each time we try to slay this beast, someone inevitably nurses it back to life.

I simply can't understand what anyone believes is to be gained by this. And what place it has here at iTulip, I'd be interested to know?

[cjppjc]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

What does it mean to be intelligent?

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

I think the "Talk" page on both of these articles is far more instructive than the content of the articles themselves.

This sort argument shifts oh-so imperceptibly back and forth between sociology and genetics and where it lands usually has more to do with the politics and perceptions of the volks making the argument. I don't see the point in it.

Eugenics, racial hiearchy theory, and racial ideologies made ruin of the world some 75 years ago and brought untold suffering to millions. Each time we try to slay this beast, someone inevitably nurses it back to life.

I simply can't understand what anyone believes is to be gained by this. And what place it has here at iTulip, I'd be interested to know?

Perfect!

Charles Murray's genetic fatalism will last forever. The debate will go on and on, but it's pretty funny to see it on Itulip and wonder how it might spiral.

[radon]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

I think the "Talk" page on both of these articles is far more instructive than the content of the articles themselves.

This sort argument shifts oh-so imperceptibly back and forth between sociology and genetics and where it lands usually has more to do with the politics and perceptions of the volks making the argument. I don't see the point in it.

Eugenics, racial hiearchy theory, and racial ideologies made ruin of the world some 75 years ago and brought untold suffering to millions. Each time we try to slay this beast, someone inevitably nurses it back to life.

I simply can't understand what anyone believes is to be gained by this. And what place it has here at iTulip, I'd be interested to know?

If you want to put the beast to rest, so to speak, the best way to do it is to encourage rational discourse about the subject. Using political correctness to censor certain subjects only allows it to fester longer.

[radon]

Re: Collapse or Indefinite Serfdom?

Perfect!

Charles Murray's genetic fatalism will last forever. The debate will go on and on, but it's pretty funny to see it on Itulip and wonder how it might spiral.

Probably as long as the subject remains taboo. It is also convenient for those who wish to remain in the fantasy world where everyone is born equally capable.