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Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

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  • Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

    I just finished reading this book. I think Duncan did an excellent job of concisely describing the problem (a credit-fueled boom coming to an end because the private sector can no longer expand). His proposed solutions I'm less certain about. He believes there are 3 possible outcomes:
    1. Austerity.
    2. Fiscal stimulus that boosts consumption but has no effect on the productive economy.
    3. Massive government investment in the "new economy" (green tech, biotech/GE, etc.)

    His position is the austerity is a non-starter in a democracy. U.S. citizens simply won't accept it once they realize how catastrophic the effects would be, and it's human nature to choose to "die later rather than die today", as he likes to say in the book.

    Therefore, he argues that it's inevitable that the government will spend. He points out that Japan started with a debt 60% of its GDP when its crisis began in 1990, and is still limping along with a debt of 230% of GDP. He acknowledges that Japan has different circumstances than the U.S., but believes that there's no reason the U.S. couldn't expand its debt up to 150-175% of GDP and continue with business as usual for another 5-10 years.

    This is exactly what would happen if the government chooses #2 above. At the end of that period, the game would be up and we'd enter a massive depression with dire economic, social and geopolitical consequences.

    His proposed remedy, then, is #3 where the government spends massive amounts of money just as they did in #2, but instead of financing consumption they invest in the productive economy (he doesn't use that phrase, or TECI, but it sounds like he's talking about the same thing). The example he uses is the government investing a trillion dollars into solar energy. He claims that if this happened, it would not only generate a massive ROI but also solve the energy problem in one stroke.

    I think he's far too optimistic about the potential for renewables, especially when it comes to replacing liquid fuels (and he doesn't address where people will get the money to buy their brand new electric car, even if such cars and the infrastructure to support them were made available by the stimulus/investment). But it sounds like his prescription is not too far away from EJ's?

    I'm curious to know if any of you have read this book, and what you think of it.

  • #2
    Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

    One-trillion dollars into solar energy will end up with a big bunch of nothing, as far as kilowatt-hours of electricity generated, and so far the official moron, Starving Steve, has been 100% right and all of these proponents of solar energy around me have been 100% wrong. One-trillion into solar energy will be one-trillion into new jobs, but this $ will produce a big bunch of nothing except to keep the consumer economy limping along for a while longer.

    Anyone wish to talk about electric cars like the Chevy Volt? How about discussing windmill forests that produce a big bunch of nothing, except to make messes out of our landscapes? Energy windfalls coming from tidal power plants? Geo-thermal--- at least the latter, geo-thermal, is a power source that is reliable, albeit scarce on the surface of the Earth.

    Being the official moron--- the guy with the lowest SAT verbal test score ever recorded at Leigh High School in San Jose until at least 1966 --- I would think that taking one-trillion dollars and building a few atomic-power plants, a handful of new hydro-electric dams, some new coal-fired and natural gas-fired power plants might be a simple, middle-of-the-road way to give our middle-finger to the hoodlums and religious zealots now governing and exporting energy to us from the Middle-East.

    One last comment: If solar energy was such a great solution to the planet's electric energy shortage, why wouldn't the nations of the Middle-East now be constructing hundreds of solar-electric power plants there?

    Maybe a few rebellious kids might tack a copy of this reply onto the door of their science/engineering teacher's classroom, maybe before the teacher walks-in, so that their entire class might have something critically important to discuss? "The New Great Depression," is the title to the article above, and how very appropriate for our times.....How could this Great Depression not be new and getting greater and more serious with each passing year?
    Last edited by Starving Steve; May 16, 2012, 02:24 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

      I'm equally skeptical about the potential for solar energy (or any other renewable) to resolve the energy crisis. I'm more interested in his general outline of the options the government might pursue and what would happen under each. In my opinion, #2 is by far the most likely scenario. Duncan thinks it will buy us another 5-10 years before collapse, but I'm not so sure.

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      • #4
        Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

        http://www.itulip.com/forums/search....archid=1606806

        See top threads above. Previously covered...

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        • #5
          Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

          Ah, thanks. Sorry I missed that.

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          • #6
            Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

            Originally posted by switters View Post
            Ah, thanks. Sorry I missed that.
            I don't know what "Sorry I missed that," was about, but I have had a discussion with Mr. Doom & Gloom, the resident farmer from Great Falls, Montana here, off and on at itulip for a while. I suspect that "that" must be a reference to our discussion about solar power, and if I remember correctly, Mr. D & G favours all power sources including solar, atomic, coal, nat-gas, hydro, wind, everything--- a reasonable position to take in my view, especially after confronting the environmental extremists here on the West Coast.

            Now, back to our debate about how worthless solar is: I looked at the power rates in Clark County, southern Nevada, Las Vegas area, in the eastern Mojave Desert or what we might call the northern Sonoran Desert. That area is hot!

            Quoting from the new April 1, 2012 Nevada Power Company, Box 98910, Las Vegas, Nevada 89151-0001 rate sheet:

            Summer on-peak rate for residences: 33cents per kwh plus the basic rate $ 11.30 per month. ENJOY!
            Or you can try another plan for summer on-peak rate for residences: 50cents per kwh plus the basic $33.60 per month. ENJOY!
            Multi-family residences get a break, an on-peak summer rate: 35cents per kwh plus $10.20 per month. ENJOY!
            Or you might try another plan for summer on-peak rate for residences: 57cents per kwh plus $17.88 per month. ENJOY!

            Off-peak summer rates are MUCH LOWER, but they have some logistics problems to solve. Off-peak would mean that you would cook supper at 4AM, eat a cold breakfast, and skip lunch. You might wash your clothes at 5AM in the swimming pool outside and hang them onto the telephone line outside to dry. You'd have to forget about turning-on the air conditioner, at least in summer. (No-one would bother you for air-conditioning in winter, however.)

            And you wonder what these Las Vegas, Clark County, southern Nevada, eastern Mojave Desert electric rates might be without the old Hoover Dam?

            And now you know why I say that the environmentalists to-day are even worse than the Republicans, if that were possible....

            Imagine how happy those multi-family residents are receiving their price discount on their utility bill for sweltering in apartment buildings in Las Vegas during summer!

            Kids: You might make a copy of this post and tack it onto the door of your science/engineering classroom for a class discussion. Imagine what the latter part of the 21st C. is going to be like in America with the brilliant minds in the green energy movement making policy in Washington and enforcing it through their EPA!
            Last edited by Starving Steve; May 16, 2012, 05:59 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

              steve, it means that he missed a previous thread on this subject.

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              • #8
                Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

                Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
                I don't know what "Sorry I missed that," was about, but I have had a discussion with Mr. Doom & Gloom, the resident farmer from Great Falls, Montana here, off and on at itulip for a while. I suspect that "that" must be a reference to our discussion about solar power, and if I remember correctly, Mr. D & G favours all power sources including solar, atomic, coal, nat-gas, hydro, wind, everything--- a reasonable position to take in my view, especially after confronting the environmental extremists here on the West Coast.

                .
                i'm not in Great Falls, but you got my position correct that I favor all forms of energy whereever they work best.


                Originally posted by jiimbergin View Post
                steve, it means that he missed a previous thread on this subject.
                yuppers. That was my position too!

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                • #9
                  Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

                  I went and read the other threads on the subject. I agree with you all: the diagnosis is excellent, but the treatment - not so much. Still, in a general sense his solution and EJs are the same, are they not? (i.e. investing in the productive economy). Duncan just needs a little more energy education.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

                    Why have the government do the investing? Do we really need more Solyndras. Lower tax rates on the middle and upper middle class so small businesses can generate more jobs and there can be more useful, deserved consumption. Make the tax rates permanent so people can plan ahead. Close tax loopholes for the very wealthy and transnational corporations to lessen the revenue gap. Why not institute a true wealth tax starting at about the $25 million level and make it progressive. Make it apply to cash and equities and bonds. This will be an incentive to invest the money in starting businesses or even just spending it and generating more economic activity. I want to hear what Buffet has to say about that! There's a millionaire tax for you! For wealth over a billion dollars the rate should be about 25% or so. Long term we should repeal the constitutional amendment authorizing income taxes and replace it with one that specifies a fixed rate for a national sales tax. We can exempt food and medicine and everyone can choose how much tax they want to pay by how much they spend. But the wealth tax should continue and it should apply to not only individuals but also corporations (with adjustments for the size of the entity), and even tax exempt entities like foundations, universities and even churches. All large concentrations of liquid wealth should be destroyed because they are sources of power and corruption. It was big government, big banks, big corporations, and politicians with big heads that got us into this mess and we don't need any of them.

                    What is wrong with people that they don't understand the physics about solar energy. The energy density is way too low, and a good thing it is or we would all be crispy critters. What solar energy does reach the surface is utilized by solar cells that are only marginally better than 20% efficient, and this isn't going to get much better anytime soon. In fact, we may already have nearly reached the limits of what's feasilble. The energy density at earth orbit is about 1.37 kW/m2 and it's much lower at the surface. Solar is great for niche applications and off grid situations, but the only way to make it work for widespread use is if we establish solar farms in space and beam the energy to where it's needed. Please be sure to avoid the beam with your aircraft, but around the periphery would be a good place to find a precooked pigeon. I sincerely doubt we will ever see such solar farms because one big enough to be useful would also be able to cook a fairly large populated area.
                    "I love a dog, he does nothing for political reasons." --Will Rogers

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                    • #11
                      Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

                      Latest video from Duncan...



                      I really enjoy this guys views, even if his solutions miss my a thousand miles.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

                        edit: Sorry, I got confused!!
                        Last edited by BadJuju; September 05, 2012, 05:05 PM. Reason: Confused about author - different Richard Duncan

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                        • #13
                          Re: Richard Duncan and the New Great Depression

                          Originally posted by photon555 View Post
                          Why have the government do the investing? Do we really need more Solyndras. Lower tax rates on the middle and upper middle class so small businesses can generate more jobs and there can be more useful, deserved consumption. Make the tax rates permanent so people can plan ahead. Close tax loopholes for the very wealthy and transnational corporations to lessen the revenue gap. Why not institute a true wealth tax starting at about the $25 million level and make it progressive. Make it apply to cash and equities and bonds. This will be an incentive to invest the money in starting businesses or even just spending it and generating more economic activity. I want to hear what Buffet has to say about that! There's a millionaire tax for you! For wealth over a billion dollars the rate should be about 25% or so. .... and even tax exempt entities like foundations, universities and even churches. All large concentrations of liquid wealth should be destroyed because they are sources of power and corruption. It was big government, big banks, big corporations, and politicians with big heads that got us into this mess

                          and
                          we don't need any of them.

                          What is wrong with people that they don't understand the physics about solar energy. The energy density is way too low, and a good thing it is or we would all be crispy critters. What solar energy does reach the surface is utilized by solar cells that are only marginally better than 20% efficient, and this isn't going to get much better anytime soon.....
                          +1
                          but solarPV DOES work and plenty good enuf - but when its DIRECTLY ON YOUR ROOF - esp if one has batteries to hook em up to (strictly 'grid-tied' systems - with no batts - are a scam, IMHO - serve only to allow the elec power monopolies to further tighten their grip on the equation.

                          this was/used-to-be my objection to nuclear - but now?
                          we flat out DONT have any choice or any rational alternative to going FLAT OUT on developing a new-gen nuke-power technology (and if it hadnt been stopped in the 70's, there never would've been a need to have endless war over oil, with ENDLESS BUDGET DEFICITS to pay for it, and never mind global-climate-warming-change nor al gore's carbon-trading scam!!!!)

                          one thing is CERTAIN: we're DOOMED with the status quo
                          and DOOMED if we allow the energy luddite-brigade to continue with their hijack of the debate.

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