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Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

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  • Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

    Originally posted by mamboni
    I invite you to read the last few sentences of the below article from The Lessons of History, by Will and Ariel Durant. It is about how the destruction of the Roman Empire through the taxation channel made people 'slaves,' in other words how serfdom emerged. You can also find an online version of the book, thanks to Google.

    "Rome had its socialist interlude under Diocletian. Faced with increasing poverty and restlessness among the masses, and with the imminent danger of barbarian invasion*, he issued in A.D. 301 an edictum de pretiis, which denounced monopolists for keeping goods from the market to raise prices, and set maximum prices and wages for all important articles and services. Extensive public works were undertaken to put the unemployed to work**, and food was distributed gratis***, or at reduced prices, to the poor. The government – which already owned most mines, quarries, and salt deposits – brought nearly all major industries and guilds under detailed control. 'In every large town,' we are told, 'the state became a powerful employer, standing head and shoulders above the private industrialists, who were in any case crushed by taxation.' When businessmen predicted ruin, Diocletian explained that the barbarians were at the gate****, and that individual liberty had to be shelved until collective liberty could be made secure. The socialism of Diocletian was a war economy, made possible by fear of foreign attack. Other factors equal, internal liberty varies inversely with external danger.

    "The task of controlling men in economic detail proved too much for Diocletian's expanding, expensive, and corrupt bureaucracy. To support this officialdom – the army, the courts, public works, and the dole – taxation rose to such heights that people lost the incentive to work or earn*****, and an erosive contest began between lawyers finding devices to evade taxes and lawyers formulating laws to prevent evasion. Thousands of Romans, to escape the tax gatherer, fled over the frontiers to seek refuge among the barbarians******. Seeking to check this elusive mobility and to facilitate regulation and taxation, the government issued decrees binding the peasant to his field and the worker to his shop until all their debts and taxes had been paid*******. In this and other ways medieval serfdom began."

    The parallels between Diocletian and Obama vis-à-vis public policy, debt, punitive taxation, attacks on personal wealth and private property, bureaucratic abuse and corruption and others are striking.

    *TSA airport security, total body scans, invasion of privacy, all to supposedly keep out terrorists

    **Remember Obama’s Shovel-ready public works program?

    ***Food stamps, SNAP

    ****The eternal ‘war on terror,’ best excuse for government excess ever invented

    *****Labor participation rate dropping precipitously as millions simply stop looking for work and the government no longer counts them so as to artificially suppress the unemployment rate.

    ******Americans are renouncing their citizenship and leaving the country in record numbers – this has never happened before.

    *******Recently, a bill has been proposed in Congress authorizing the TSA to sieze the passport of and detain any American attempting to leave the country with gretaer than $50,000 in outstanding debt. Diocletian lives!
    Ecclesiastes 1:9

    New International Version (NIV)


    9 What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;
    there is nothing new under the sun.


    The older I am getting, the more astonish I become at the wisdom of the ancients.

  • #2
    Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

    Note the time between the edict, AD 301, and the "fall of Rome" is multiple generations.

    The decline of the west (and U.S.) is clearly underway, but I wouldn't hold my breath (or tell my children to hold theirs) waiting for the US to be overrun by the hordes (unless those hordes are from within, perhaps).

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

      Damn! Knew I shoulda voted for McCain! If he was president none of these issues would be a concern right now.


      *TSA airport security, total body scans, invasion of privacy, all to supposedly keep out terrorists

      ****The eternal ‘war on terror,’ best excuse for government excess ever invented

      *****Labor participation rate dropping precipitously as millions simply stop looking for work and the government no longer counts them so as to artificially suppress the unemployment rate.

      ******Americans are renouncing their citizenship and leaving the country in record numbers – this has never happened before.

      *******Recently, a bill has been proposed in Congress authorizing the TSA to sieze the passport of and detain any American attempting to leave the country with gretaer than $50,000 in outstanding debt. Diocletian lives!



      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

        Originally posted by BillBoard View Post
        Ecclesiastes 1:9

        New International Version (NIV)


        9 What has been will be again,
        what has been done will be done again;
        there is nothing new under the sun.


        The older I am getting, the more astonish I become at the wisdom of the ancients.
        of course, for at least some of us, this is God's wisdom, not the ancients.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

          *TSA airport security, total body scans, invasion of privacy, all to supposedly keep out terrorists
          Main program began following 9/11; first years of W. Bush administration

          **Remember Obama’s Shovel-ready public works program?
          No.

          ***Food stamps, SNAP
          In effect for decades.

          ****The eternal ‘war on terror,’ best excuse for government excess ever invented

          *****Labor participation rate dropping precipitously as millions simply stop looking for work and the government no longer counts them so as to artificially suppress the unemployment rate.

          ******Americans are renouncing their citizenship and leaving the country in record numbers – this has never happened before.
          Data, please.

          *******Recently, a bill has been proposed in Congress authorizing the TSA to sieze the passport of and detain any American attempting to leave the country with gretaer than $50,000 in outstanding debt. Diocletian lives!
          Name of bill, please. Introduced in Congress by Democrats?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

            Originally posted by subtly View Post
            Damn! Knew I shoulda voted for McCain! If he was president none of these issues would be a concern right now.
            If McCain were president we'd probably be involved in one or two additional wars. And he's also corrupt in spite of the "maverick" image he's tried to promote. (Remember the Keating Five?)

            But voting for the corrupt, useless empty suit who presently occupies the Oval Office was hardly an answer. Only a Third Party can turn this around.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama - Snap program and more expansion of programs

              From the horses mouth .......whitehouse.gov.....see below.

              Keep in mind - as every itulipian knows, every government program paid for with borrowed money - diminishes the value of a dollar.......raising the number of dollars necessary to buy chicken, flour, sugar, and slowly starves those with the least wealth in society. Not that Republicans are much of an alternative.....

              "The Recovery Act set a lower refundability threshold for the Child Tax Credit (CTC), and this was also continued through 2012 in last December’s tax deal. This lower refundability threshold provides a tax cut to 11.8 million working families with 21.3 million children. The Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) is widely recognized as one of the largest and most effective anti-poverty programs in the country; it both encourages work and alleviates poverty. The Recovery Act expanded the EITC for families with three or more children—giving them a tax cut of up to $640 this year—and also reduced the “marriage penalty” faced by working married families. These were continued through 2012 in the December tax deal, and, together, these enhancements to the EITC are helping 5.8 million working parents with 12.5 million children.
              For the 45 million low-income Americans that participate each month, the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, formerly known as food stamps) is an important economic lifeline. The face of SNAP has evolved over time and, during the recent recession, many families who had never before accessed social benefits found themselves suddenly in need.

              http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/defa...t_10_14_11.pdf

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

                Originally posted by Raz View Post
                If McCain were president we'd probably be involved in one or two additional wars. And he's also corrupt in spite of the "maverick" image he's tried to promote. (Remember the Keating Five?)

                But voting for the corrupt, useless empty suit who presently occupies the Oval Office was hardly an answer. Only a Third Party can turn this around.

                Raz, as usual, I didn't make my point very well. I didn't vote for the current SOB holding office, and in no way do I endorse him. I come here as much for the intelligent and insightful "News" discussions as I do for the money advice from Eric. No matter which way they slant, partisan pieces like this showing up at iTulip really annoy me.

                Agreed on a third party being necessary. If only the Tea Party folks and the Occupy folks realized they really share the same main goal...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

                  Originally posted by subtly View Post
                  Raz, as usual, I didn't make my point very well. I didn't vote for the current SOB holding office, and in no way do I endorse him. I come here as much for the intelligent and insightful "News" discussions as I do for the money advice from Eric. No matter which way they slant, partisan pieces like this showing up at iTulip really annoy me.

                  Agreed on a third party being necessary. If only the Tea Party folks and the Occupy folks realized they really share the same main goal...
                  We're likely both on the same page. I believe the quote from Durant to be historicaly accurate and is applicable to the Obama Administration.
                  And I wouldn't have a problem with the partisan usage of it IF it contained a
                  *footnote* that the other branch of the RepubliCrat Party is little better.

                  I'm partisan in my belief that the
                  RepubliCrats are destroying our country.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

                    Originally posted by Raz View Post
                    We're likely both on the same page. I believe the quote from Durant to be historicaly accurate and is applicable to the Obama Administration.
                    And I wouldn't have a problem with the partisan usage of it IF it contained a
                    *footnote* that the other branch of the RepubliCrat Party is little better.

                    I'm partisan in my belief that the
                    RepubliCrats are destroying our country.
                    +1

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Of Diocletian's edictum de pretiis and Obama

                      Originally posted by vinoveri View Post
                      Note the time between the edict, AD 301, and the "fall of Rome" is multiple generations.

                      The decline of the west (and U.S.) is clearly underway, but I wouldn't hold my breath (or tell my children to hold theirs) waiting for the US to be overrun by the hordes (unless those hordes are from within, perhaps).
                      I agree, but then I am reminded that things tend to progress much more rapidly these days. How many of us could even have imagined the capability of an Iphone just 20 short years ago? Or a black man in the White House? I've noticed a profound decline in our society in the last 10 years or so. Things just move faster today. Society probably doesn't change as fast as technology, but I think it is strongly influenced by it.

                      I'm always reminded of a documentary a grade school teacher showed my class back in the mid 70s

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock

                      Toffler argued that society is undergoing an enormous structural change, a revolution from an
                      industrial society to a "super-industrial society". This change overwhelms people, he believed, the accelerated rate of technological and social change leaving people disconnected and suffering from "shattering stress and disorientation"—future shocked. Toffler stated that the majority of social problems are symptoms of future shock. In his discussion of the components of such shock he popularized the term "information overload."
                      Last edited by flintlock; April 16, 2012, 12:58 PM.

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