Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

[shiny!]

"What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

An Israeli couple started a Facebook page telling Iranians that they didn't want war between them. Iranians are responding in kind:

Israel loves Iran/Iran Loves Israel

'Israel Loves Iran' iniative takes off...

[Adeptus]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Cute, but we all know how that turned out for the other guys...

[don]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Israel and Iran are regional powers defending what they have and competing for more in the ME. An expedient alliance between the two is hardly impossible - a common targeted rival would do the trick. (see European alliance history over the last couple of centuries)

[flintlock]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Cute, but we all know how that turned out for the other guys...

Good point! lol.

[shiny!]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

There are the governments of the two countries doing their saber rattling, but the people in those countries don't hate each other. I work for a Jewish family. It was my boss who showed me this story. As he pointed out, the ancient Babalonians were very good to the Jews and there was friendship between them for centuries. Even now, most Iranians are very friendly people. They don't support their crazy dictator or the fanatical mullahs..

Communication technology is allowing people to bypass the war propaganda of their governments and communicate directly with each other. What we're seeing here is that while our governments try to demonize the "enemy" and instill us with fear and hatred, when we actually talk with the people on the other side we find people who want to be friends.

People thought the Soviet Union was so powerful, but the Russians using email to communicate with each other were able to bring it down. Now "enemies" talking through Facebook discover they are friends. If this trend continues, it'll become harder and harder for governments to persuade their people to war. They'll say "This country is our enemy and we need you to go fight and die for us!" and we'll say, "Hold on a minute, let's call them and see if this is true."

[c1ue]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

People thought the Soviet Union was so powerful, but the Russians using email to communicate with each other were able to bring it down.

Uh, I disagree mightily.

The $100 million dollars in debts owed, a series of poor harvests necessitating food imports, a naive Premier plus $20/barrel oil had far more to do with it.

[shiny!]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Pardon me, I misspoke earlier when I said "email" communications helped the Russian people overthrow the Soviet government. I meant to say "Fax". From my understanding, it was the Russian peoples desire for a more moral and honest government that spurred the overthrow of the Soviet regime. Their debt, the fall of oil prices, etc. were not the reasons for its collapse.

Everything You Think You Know About the Collapse of the Soviet Union Is Wrong

**********

A quote from "Dismantling Utopia: How Information Ended the Soviet Union" by Scott Shane, from the Cato Institute's book review of the same:

"... hard-liners staged a coup to oust President Gorbachev and to prevent the dissolution of the USSR. When Yeltsin showed his defiance of the junta by mounting a tank, his heroic action was captured by CNN and broadcast to thousands of Moscovites who rallied to his cause. The Communist party was no longer capable of enforcing an information blockade. As Shane notes in Chapter 9, Inside Soviet borders the new information was reproduced, multiplied, amplified, and disseminated by the technology that had flooded the country. Fax machines and photocopiers, video recorders and personal computers outside the government were no longer exotica but a sprawling, living nervous system that linked the Russian political opposition, the republican independence movements, and the burgeoning private sector. Tied informally together, this equipment constituted a network of considerable scale [p. 262]."

When the government lost control over the flow of information between its citizens and the outside world, and lost control over communication of citizens between each other, it could no longer hold on to its power. This is the point I'm trying to make with regards to social revolutions happening around the world. We are witnessing a sea change in social organization.

[Adeptus]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Shiny, excuse my cynic quick reply. I agree with you in the sense that I think in this day and age the people are more empowered to discover the relative "truth" of the matter via the Internet, and especially thanks to social networks. The Internet is our generation's great equalizer, and it is evident, given the Occupy movement and the Arab spring, that it is unquestionably having an impact. "The people" are starting to realize their true power:



"The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any”.
- Alice Walker



For peace to prevail, we need to better understand our supposed "foes"... that they too are humans with basic needs, aspirations and unique beliefs. The Internet and social networks remove the extreme distances and travel requirements to meet and engage with whom we are told are our enemies. This engagement, much like physical traveling around the world, opens up minds - but unlike physical traveling, it is economically accessible to much greater part of the world's population (currently 1.5Billion out 7). Questioning the propaganda, is also useful, and music has also certainly played a huge role in at least the past decades. The song "Russians" (wikipedia) that came out in the 80's about the cold war (before my time) "I hope the russians love their children too" (youtube) by Sting comes to mind.

SONG LYRICS:
"Russians"

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie we don't believe anymore
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is if the Russians love their children too

[Adeptus]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

On a slight, but totally hilarious tangent, I'd like to share this gem from the folks at 'Juice News Media'. It starts off with a quote from Hillary:

"We are in an information war, and we are losing that war" - Hillary Clinton

Watch the whole thing, but around 1:45 they show the 'Occupy' movements in Egypt, Iraq and Israel's online colaboration not to express "love" and support to each other, but to show solidarity in joining together to free .... Oppressed Americans! It gets even funier later with Mexico and Hugo Chavez of Venuzuela weighing in.

God, I love the Internet!!

[charliebrown]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Awesome song .... That was from Sting and the Dreams of the Blue Turtles album.


I remember it, thanks for tickling my gray cells. Haunting melody, I'm going to fire up my geetar tonight and try to chord it out.

[bagginz]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

here are the governments of the two countries doing their saber rattling, but the people in those countries don't hate each other. I work for a Jewish family. It was my boss who showed me this story. As he pointed out, the ancient Babalonians were very good to the Jews and there was friendship between them for centuries. Even now, most Iranians are very friendly people. They don't support their crazy dictator or the fanatical mullahs..

Communication technology is allowing people to bypass the war propaganda of their governments and communicate directly with each other. What we're seeing here is that while our governments try to demonize the "enemy" and instill us with fear and hatred, when we actually talk with the people on the other side we find people who want to be friends.

People thought the Soviet Union was so powerful, but the Russians using email to communicate with each other were able to bring it down. Now "enemies" talking through Facebook discover they are friends. If this trend continues, it'll become harder and harder for governments to persuade their people to war. They'll say "This country is our enemy and we need you to go fight and die for us!" and we'll say, "Hold on a minute, let's call them and see if this is true."

Excellent post Shiny Spot on.

Still too early to tell, but looking back from the future, the net and modern interpersonal communications technology may yet turn out to have been be the modern version of the Gutenberg printing press. i.e. the catalyst that totally disempowers the existing systems of repression, propaganda and control - for while at least. A bit of breathing space from the sociopathic control freaks every once in a while appears to be useful for evolving the aggregate quality of human consciousness.

@Adeptus: Love the Rap News clip Classic!

@Adeptus and Charliebrown re. Sting and the Dreams of the Blue Turtles album. Yep, love the song, the sentiment and the album

[don]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

The year is 1914 and World war 1 has been going on for 4 months,soldiers from Germany and Britain, living in mud filled trenches suffering from the cold weather,the chill of the icy rain pouring down on them, with the rain comes the constant shell bombardment from both sides,snipers picking off their targets death is everywhere hope is nowhere.

Suddenly around 10pm after the guns had fallen silent,singing could be heard from the German trenches,

Stille Nacht! Heil'ge Nacht!
Alles schläft; einsam wacht
Nur das traute hoch heilige Paar.
Holder Knab' im lockigen Haar,
Schlafe in himmlischer Ruh!.

Christmas eve and the German soldiers were singing Carols,and after a while the British joined in singing in English, for the first time in four months there was hope in the air.

Day light came on Christmas morning, the soldiers from both trenches lay aside their arms got out of the trenches and walked into no man's land, about half way between the trenches, they shook hands and exchanged cigarettes and chocolate whilst wishing each other a merry Christmas,

a soccer ball was produced and both sides played soccer this went on for a while,slowly both sides dispersed back to their own respective trenches.

the next day the shelling started again and the war was back on.

apparently the rank and file got along . . .

[shiny!]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

The year is 1914 and World war 1 has been going on for 4 months,soldiers from Germany and Britain, living in mud filled trenches suffering from the cold weather,the chill of the icy rain pouring down on them, with the rain comes the constant shell bombardment from both sides,snipers picking off their targets death is everywhere hope is nowhere.

Suddenly around 10pm after the guns had fallen silent,singing could be heard from the German trenches,

Stille Nacht! Heil'ge Nacht!
Alles schläft; einsam wacht
Nur das traute hoch heilige Paar.
Holder Knab' im lockigen Haar,
Schlafe in himmlischer Ruh!.

Christmas eve and the German soldiers were singing Carols,and after a while the British joined in singing in English, for the first time in four months there was hope in the air.

Day light came on Christmas morning, the soldiers from both trenches lay aside their arms got out of the trenches and walked into no man's land, about half way between the trenches, they shook hands and exchanged cigarettes and chocolate whilst wishing each other a merry Christmas,

a soccer ball was produced and both sides played soccer this went on for a while,slowly both sides dispersed back to their own respective trenches.

the next day the shelling started again and the war was back on.

apparently the rank and file got along . . .

This brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.

[c1ue]

Re: Israel and Iran: Messages of Love

Pardon me, I misspoke earlier when I said "email" communications helped the Russian people overthrow the Soviet government. I meant to say "Fax". From my understanding, it was the Russian peoples desire for a more moral and honest government that spurred the overthrow of the Soviet regime. Their debt, the fall of oil prices, etc. were not the reasons for its collapse.

I disagree again.

Gorbachev as the leader of the Soviet Union decided to cave.

His predecessors in World War II, faced with a far more ruinous situation, did not.

Trying to say that faxes in some way caused Gorbachev as the titular leader of the Soviet Union to give up is revisionism of the highest degree.

Trying to say that faxes helped him not get tossed out of power, ignores that as the titular head of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev was also the titular head of the Army, of the Police, of the Intelligence Agencies, of the economy, government and so forth.

The article further reduces its own credibility by failing to recognize that there were centers of dissent even in the Russian heart of the Soviet Union long before 1985. In St. Petersburg, there were numerous underground bands who - in their concerts and music - openly advocated for change.

Other examples of this article's weakness:

No mention whatsoever of the debt level Russia endured. $100 billion might not seem like much today, but in 1985 it represented a lot of money especially as it had to be foreign exchange for the purpose of import.

No mention of the food import issue despite a mention of lines for food. No mention of the ruinous costs of maintaining Soviet governments in East Germany and Eastern Europe.

If you want to learn - I suggest reading this speech given by Yegor Gaidar - who was Minister of Economics for the Soviet Union at the time of its collapse.

http://www.aei.org/issue/foreign-and...viet-collapse/

Some quotes:

The result of the disastrous agriculture policy implemented between the late 1920s and the early 1950s was the sharpest fall of productivity experienced by a major country in the twentieth century.

...

In 1963, Nikita Khrushchev sent a letter to the leaders of the Socialist bloc, informing them that the Soviet Union would no longer be able to supply them with grain. That year, the Soviet state bought 12 million tons of grain--and spent one third of the country's gold reserves to do so. Khrushchev commented: "Soviet power cannot tolerate any more the shame that we had to endure."[2]

...

Therefore, in the 1960s, state production of grain stabilized and, regardless of attempts by the Soviet leadership, remained fixed at 65 million tons per year until the late 1980s (see figure 2). The cities, however, continued to grow. What policy could succeed if a country had no increase in grain production and an 80 million-person increase in its urban population?

The picture was bleak. Russia, which before World War I was the biggest grain exporter--significantly larger than the United States and Canada--started to be the biggest world importer of grain, more so than Japan and China combined.

Already in 1970, Western Siberia was considered a large oil region by international standards. During the next twelve years, the Soviet Union increased oil production there twelvefold.

...

By 1975, the Soviet Union began having serious problems with the output of new oil wells: much higher investment was needed for the current operations to get the same output (see figure 3). But the Soviet Union was fortunate to get unusually high oil prices starting in the mid-1970s.

...

The timeline of the collapse of the Soviet Union can be traced to September 13, 1985. On this date, Sheikh Ahmed Zaki Yamani, the minister of oil of Saudi Arabia, declared that the monarchy had decided to alter its oil policy radically. The Saudis stopped protecting oil prices, and Saudi Arabia quickly regained its share in the world market. During the next six months, oil production in Saudi Arabia increased fourfold, while oil prices collapsed by approximately the same amount in real terms.

As a result, the Soviet Union lost approximately $20 billion per year, money without which the country simply could not survive. The Soviet leadership was confronted with a difficult decision on how to adjust. There were three options--or a combination of three options--available to the Soviet leadership.