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RE: The Income Shortfall

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  • RE: The Income Shortfall

    People tend to forget that $100,000 is a lot of money but when it comes to California housing many just sweep it aside as chump change like finding a quarter in your sofa. You realize how much it is when the nationwide median home price is $150,000 and a $100,000 can go a long way when homes are priced at that level. In Las Vegas you can pick up one home or two condos for that price. Yet we have reached a critical juncture in home prices for California. For over a decade exotic mortgages stretched the stagnant wages of households and allowed many to feed into the bubble with borrowed time and money. Once this was removed and incomes were actually being verified, the Fed had to make up for the phony debt based decade and forced mortgage rates lower and the government throttled up the FHA insured 3.5 percent down mortgages to juice the market. However with rates at all-time lows and down payments at pathetically low levels, the legal leverage has reached a pinnacle and yet home prices continue to fall. Why? Because household wages have gone nowhere for over a decade and potential new home buyers have different goals in mind when it comes to owning a home. We’ve crunched the numbers below and you will be surprised to see that $100,000 does mean a lot in the overall scope of a household.

    Measuring real changes and value

    I wanted to run a hypothetical between buying a “nice” starter home in 2001 versus buying that same home today but at current inflated bubble prices. Below are the numbers:




    The first case shows someone buying a home with a $300,000 mortgage back in 2001 with a 7.25 percent interest rate. This rate is below the 40 year historical average but is closer to long-term averages. The total cost of the principal and interest over 30 years comes out to be $736,750. Let us now assume this same home is in a bubble market like Burbank or Culver City and now sells for $500,000 today:





    The total cost of this mortgage is now up to $885,491. This is a very real scenario in many bubble cities in California. In the end, this family will end up paying $148,741 more than the family back in 2001 even though mortgage rates have fallen to rock bottom levels. That amount by the way, is the entire cost of a US median home price. Let us not complicate things by throwing in taxes, insurance, and general maintenance costs of owning a home.

    You might be asking, but let us see the zip code data for some of these hypothetical cities. Sure, we’ll look at data from 2001 and current 2012 data for three locations: Irvine, Burbank, and Culver City:





    Keep in mind that it is very likely that the housing bubble was already a few years in starting in 2001 but this is as far as my data goes for zip code specific markets. You’ll notice that each of these zip codes has seen incredible amounts of growth. But growth should be measured by the overall inflation rate being factored in:





    Over this decade long period the California inflation rate was 28 percent. In recent months it has moved gently lower.
    Take a look at the chart again. Do you see 28 percent gains for those zip codes? The only area is the 92614 zip code in Irvine. Every other area is still massively above the statewide inflation rate and as we know, over the very long-term housing tracks the general inflation rate.

    So you might say, surely incomes in California have surged over this time. Think again:




    California household incomes are back to levels last seen in the late 1990s. Once I control for all these other factors you realize that housing in many mid-tier cities is still massively inflated. Multiply 28 percent to the 2001 median price and figure out how overpriced each market above is. This is why we showed many zip codes in 2011 falling significantly even though the government, banks, and Fed are trying to juice the market.

    California’s underemployment rate by the way is above 20 percent which will only add additional pressure to household incomes:





    The little lull we are feeling is because of Fed, banking, and government policy trying to keep the housing market together. Now the likely impact is that it will have a big say in markets where home prices are $150,000 which is most of the country. But here in mid-tier California cities with loads of shadow inventory we’ll continue to have a slow and steady correction to the downside. Some say they don’t care if they see their home values drop 10 to 20 percent but for a $500,000 place you are basically lighting on fire $100,000. Most would have an issue with that especially when there is little data showing household incomes in California are rising.

    And just run a thought experiment. Assume home prices go up 3 percent per year in one of these markets and household incomes remain stagnant (they have for a decade and we are looking more like the Japanese model here). So that $500,000 home today is going to cost this much in 10 years:





    That $500,000 home will then be worth $671,958 in 10 years (a $14,000+ annual price increase). Do you think incomes will keep pace for this? Of course not! This is why it is complete nonsense for those that understand the math and we need only look at the shadow inventory to realize many are now unable to afford their mortgage payments.

    Here in California you still have many in the delusional property ladder mindset. They think that they will ladder up to their dream home at some point. This is bogus. Who will many of these pre-bubble buyers sell to? The young are less affluent and guess what, many aren’t as motivated to buy:

    “(The Atlantic) Consider the declining appeal of homeownership. The idea that a couple should participate in an ownership society by buying a home has dissolved. Just 12% of whites between 18 and 34 told Pew that owning a home was “one of the most important things” in their life. In a nation where homeownership rates peaked at 67% just seven years ago, that’s a remarkable shift in expectations. And what is the declining appeal of a massive mortgage if not the natural result of an economy that has stiff-armed millions of young students, stuck them with thousands in debt, and forced up to one-third of them into living with their parents when they expected to be cultivating a career?”



    Even more startling in the data above, one in three between the ages of 25 to 29 is moving back home. These are your typical first time home buyers. Hard to sell your inflated home when your potential pool has moved back home with incredible amounts of student debt.

    The fact that home prices continue to fall in these markets in California is no surprise. Expect more of the same in 2012.
    Unless we see household incomes rise, which is a big stretch with a 20+ percent underemployment rate, good luck trying to see those inflated homes go even higher. The bottom line is the market intervention is running out of steam and you really can’t get rates any lower. The Fed is basically the only game in town buying up these mortgages. And what use is a low rate when households are simply poorer? Ultimately home prices need to reflect local household incomes and a $150,000 home price nationwide with a $50,000 household might make sense. But a $500,000 home would require a minimum of a $160,000 household income and the data is not showing that. In other words expect mid-tier and upper-tier markets to face additional price declines.

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/l...s-prices-2012/

  • #2
    Re: The Income Shortfall

    yeah and hows that 'recovery' goin...
    yep, according to krugman all we need now is another few trillion in bernanke bux and we'll be feeling all 'recovered' any day now...

    kinda like surviving a weekend bender, only with a bigger (debt) hangover
    but then, thats what our saviours in lower manhattan are counting on, eh?
    (and krugman, et al, are pushing the clowns in DC into believing)

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: The Income Shortfall

      - The rich Chinese are buying them and will continue to buy them.
      - Interest rates will stay low
      - Expensive houses are owned by professionals whose income will rise as inflation goes up.
      - Chinese do not come all the way over here for crap houses. They buy the best houses they can near the best schools for their kids.
      - Location, location, location

      As the economy continues its "adjustment" over the coming years, it is not unreasonable to expect certain neighborhoods become more attractive in relation to others. Yes, average prices will continue to fall, but the better neighborhoods may see price appreciation. You have the elites, then the rich, then those who work for the rich, then you have the 90% (everybody else). It is possible (and I see it in the Seattle area first hand), that 90% of houses will continue to fall, while 10% of them do not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Income Shortfall

        It is possible (and I see it in the Seattle area first hand), that 90% of houses will continue to fall, while 10% of them do not.
        and in SF . . .

        Yes, yes, Noe Valley, say eager S.F. home buyers

        Carolyn Said
        Monday, February 20, 2012

        The two-bedroom Noe Valley house had an unorthodox layout and looked like a 1980s Tahoe cabin.

        Taking those flaws into consideration, Realtor Bernard Katzmann listed it for $1.1 million at the inauspicious sales time of Thanksgiving. Then he watched in amazement as 22 offers came in - many for all cash - and it ended up selling for $1.54 million.

        "Lots of tech companies were represented" among the bidders, he said. "I heard that many buyers want to get in now before Facebook goes public (and spawns scores of new millionaires), which is pushing demand."

        In a still-moribund real estate market, Noe Valley stands out as a neighborhood buoyed by positive fiscal forces.

        All the money flowing into tech firms, and all the tech jobs being created in Silicon Valley and San Francisco, have been a boon for Noe Valley because of its fortuitous location for Peninsula, South Bay and downtown commutes, along with its walkable, small-town feel, family-friendly vibe (it's called "stroller valley"), and charming, albeit pricey, Victorians.

        "It's like a little village within the city," said Sally Smith, co-publisher and editor of the Noe Valley Voice, the monthly neighborhood newspaper. "It has that community feeling that everybody wants."

        "Noe Valley is a favorite neighborhood for techies because it's so close to 101 and 280," said Tim Gullicksen, an agent with Zephyr Real Estate. "It's a pain to live on the north side of San Francisco because they have to get all the way through town to get to the freeways."

        Tech firms' buses a plus

        The private bus routes sponsored by tech firms are a draw, said Zephyr agent Danielle Lazier. "We see a lot of first-time buyers from tech companies who still want to have a city lifestyle; they don't want to live in the suburbs, but they work down south. What I notice is when people from Google, Apple, Yahoo and Genentech come in for a first meeting, we literally draw a line in the city because of the commute. Noe Valley is at the top of the list, then Bernal, Mission, Dolores, Cole Valley."

        The numbers tell the story. The median sales price in San Francisco has tumbled to $653,000, down 22 percent from its 2007 peak of $840,000, according to real estate information service Dataquick. That's a far less dramatic slide than most other California cities. But in ZIP code 94114, which includes Noe Valley and the Castro, the median sales price for single-family homes now stands at $1.332 million, only 5 percent below its 2007 peak of $1.406 million. The median condo price is $820,000, down 8.5 percent from its 2007 peak of $896,000.

        "It's not completely bulletproof, but it's more stable than other areas," Lazier said. "Not everything sells over asking price the way it used to."

        Noe isn't the only San Francisco neighborhood whose cachet has insulated it from the real estate downturn. ZIP codes 94117 (Haight-Ashbury/Cole Valley) and 94123 (Marina/Cow Hollow), for instance, have seen even less pricing impact.

        Tight inventory is one factor that keeps Noe Valley prices up. Last year, 163 existing single-family homes, 143 existing condos and 10 new residences changed hands in the ZIP code, Dataquick reported.

        Location, location, location

        "Noe Valley has several things going for it," said Jed Kolko, chief economist at real estate site Trulia.com. "Being closer to the Silicon Valley commute than other desirable parts of the city is a big plus. It's also convenient to downtown. And it's a neighborhood where there's not a lot of new construction to relieve price pressure as more people go after pretty much the same number of homes."

        Brendan Collins, owner of Collins Construction, buys "fixer" houses, remodels and expands them, and then sells them. Noe Valley, where the older Victorians and Edwardians are modest in size because they were built for working-class families, is particularly fertile ground because it is such a desirable neighborhood for families, he said.

        Vaishnavi Bodanapu, who is creating a social enterprise around food, and her husband, Sundeep Peechu, a venture capitalist in Palo Alto, are hunting for a two- or three-bedroom house in Noe Valley, where they hope to start a family.

        "If you're working in the South Bay, it is one of the best spots to be in the city, other than SoMa, which doesn't have the same neighborhood feel," she said.

        "I certainly think it's a little more expensive than it should be," she said. "But Noe has its own charm. You get more for your money in Bernal Heights, but Noe feels like more part of the city."

        A dearth of for-sale properties means they haven't made an offer yet. According to Realtor.com, ZIP code 94114 had 36 single-family homes for sale in January, half the number of listings a year earlier.

        "There are lots of people in the market to buy, but there's not a whole lot of inventory," Bodanapu said.

        Pete Brannigan, an agent with Brown & Co. Real Estate, said more than 100 people streamed through a recent open house. "It was a good price point for the neighborhood, just under a million dollars, meaning it was a, quote-unquote, starter home for Noe," he said.

        Many longtime residents say the neighborhood has maintained its character throughout the influx of new inhabitants.
        The current tech-powered surge of house hunters is nothing new, said Smith, the Noe Valley Voice editor. She's seen similar dynamics several times before.

        "I moved here in the wave in the 1970s when lots of young people came here from Haight-Ashbury. Once they started meeting and having kids, they spilled into Noe Valley," she said. "About 10 years later, as the tech industry boom was just starting, people who worked in Silicon Valley wanted to live here. The (private corporate) buses definitely created another wave. Now there are new businesses that are accelerating people's desires to live here. We've been seeing higher demand, and rents and home prices going up."

        A sense of community

        "There has always been a really big sense of community here, and there still is," said Carol Yenne, owner of Small Frys, a children's store on 24th Street - "downtown Noe Valley." She and her husband have lived in Noe Valley for 36 years. Their two grown daughters now live in the neighborhood with their own families.

        "There aren't fancy cars or huge McMansions here the way there are in places like Menlo Park, where people tear down houses and build ones three times bigger," Yenne said. "Here they might gut the interior and build an addition on the back, but there isn't the kind of ostentatiousness that you see in other areas (touched by) the technology boom. When I meet people on the street here, I don't know if they're a fireman or a Facebook millionaire; they all look the same."

        While prices continue to climb, it helps to remember that affordability is always relative, she said.

        "When we bought our (Noe Valley) house in 1975, it cost nothing compared to nowadays," Yenne said. "But my mother back in Montana cried because we could have bought 10 acres and a ranch house there for the same price, and here we got a 25-foot-by-100-foot lot with an old, crummy house."

        Carolyn Said is a San Francisco Chronicle staff writer. csaid@sfchronicle.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: The Income Shortfall

          Originally posted by aaron View Post
          - The rich Chinese are buying them and will continue to buy them.
          - Interest rates will stay low
          - Expensive houses are owned by professionals whose income will rise as inflation goes up.
          - Chinese do not come all the way over here for crap houses. They buy the best houses they can near the best schools for their kids.
          - Location, location, location

          As the economy continues its "adjustment" over the coming years, it is not unreasonable to expect certain neighborhoods become more attractive in relation to others. Yes, average prices will continue to fall, but the better neighborhoods may see price appreciation. You have the elites, then the rich, then those who work for the rich, then you have the 90% (everybody else). It is possible (and I see it in the Seattle area first hand), that 90% of houses will continue to fall, while 10% of them do not.
          80's and 90's era middle class housing is where all the downward action is. Where the super wealthy engage in bidding wars for certain locations, its going to see support. We are going banana republic.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: The Income Shortfall

            Originally posted by aaron View Post
            - The rich Chinese are buying them and will continue to buy them.
            - Interest rates will stay low
            - Expensive houses are owned by professionals whose income will rise as inflation goes up.
            - Chinese do not come all the way over here for crap houses. They buy the best houses they can near the best schools for their kids.
            - Location, location, location
            I dunno, I don't think there are millions of rich Chinese willing to immigrate here in the states and buy at inflated prices. They saw what happened to Japan the last time around. But even if there were I'd think they'd be more shrewd than that, they really just seem to like our colleges anyways. The foreigners will not be saving us from ourselves. Rates will likely stay low for a long time, it'd be economic suicide to raise them given the situation and I don't think anyone really wants to rock the boat overseas either. Unfortunately professionals that can actually afford $300K+ homes are far and few between. Not many people make around $100K+ in the US really and most of them are already stuck with a home bought during the bubble years for $500K+ and are likely spending almost every penny they've got to maintain a certain lifestyle. Location matters to an extent but bubbles were everywhere and so you'll see effects of the bubble deflating everywhere too. Even the high end homes that shot up in value millions during that time period will see massive devaluation back to around where they were in the late 90's.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: The Income Shortfall

              Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
              I dunno, I don't think there are millions of rich Chinese willing to immigrate here in the states and buy at inflated prices. They saw what happened to Japan the last time around. But even if there were I'd think they'd be more shrewd than that, they really just seem to like our colleges anyways.
              The number of wealthy Chinese willing to immigrate to the United States and buy houses at inflated prices may not number in the millions but it is not because they're too smart to buy into a bubble so much as there may not be millions of such people with that kind of money and the desire to live in the U.S. In my experiences, people of Chinese ethnicity seem to have an unusual affinity/desire for real estate speculation. If you thought the debt-to-income ratios in the U.S. housing bubble were insane, you really need to look in to the debt-to-income ratios in China, Hong Kong, and Singapore.

              Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
              Even the high end homes that shot up in value millions during that time period will see massive devaluation back to around where they were in the late 90's.
              For locations in the U.S. that are particularly attractive to Chinese, there's likely to be reasonable opportunity to sell massively overpriced pieces of real estate to them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: The Income Shortfall

                Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                In my experiences, people of Chinese ethnicity seem to have an unusual affinity/desire for real estate speculation. If you thought the debt-to-income ratios in the U.S. housing bubble were insane, you really need to look in to the debt-to-income ratios in China, Hong Kong, and Singapore.
                Isn't it generally accepted now that China and many SE Asian countries are still experiencing a RE bubble that has only recently just started to pop? Their appetite for RE as an investment will likely wane along with the bursting of their respective bubbles.

                Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                For locations in the U.S. that are particularly attractive to Chinese, there's likely to be reasonable opportunity to sell massively overpriced pieces of real estate to them.
                I've heard variations of this for years since at least 2008 in SoCal. Meanwhile the areas that were once considered to be immune from price drops shrinks each year. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few rich millionaire Chinese that get played for fools and buy at inflated prices but you can't reasonably count on large numbers of rich suckers to support an entire high end RE market almost by their lonesome.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: The Income Shortfall

                  Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
                  Isn't it generally accepted now that China and many SE Asian countries are still experiencing a RE bubble that has only recently just started to pop? Their appetite for RE as an investment will likely wane along with the bursting of their respective bubbles.
                  You're correct that China's housing bubble is deflating. However, you have to understand the Chinese mindset. They don't see real estate as a bubble, even when it pops. They are devout in their belief that real estate only goes up although there may be temporary "dips." Take a look at Hong Kong's prices from 1995 to present to see how quickly real estate bubbles reflate in markets where there are a lot of Chinese people. Housing bubble behavior among Chinese people is nothing like housing bubble behavior among people in Japan.

                  I've heard variations of this for years since at least 2008 in SoCal. Meanwhile the areas that were once considered to be immune from price drops shrinks each year. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a few rich millionaire Chinese that get played for fools and buy at inflated prices but you can't reasonably count on large numbers of rich suckers to support an entire high end RE market almost by their lonesome.
                  I am not making an argument for speculating in real estate in the hopes that one can find a rich Chinese sucker to take the hot potato. I'm just saying that in some places that are still very high-priced and seemingly bubbly (I loosely track San Francisco, Palo Alto, and a few other Silicon Valley cities), it's entirely possible that prices will not fall much further and may even go up.

                  Whereas for most Americans, paying 33% of gross income for a mortgage is about the limit that a household can tolerate. However, for Chinese households, that number can go as high as 70%.

                  There was a posting here on iTulip that referenced a PEW report on changes in net worth from 2007 to 2010 or thereabouts. Naturally, thanks to the 2008 crash, net worth dropped across all ethnicities but Asians got hammered particularly hard. When you dig down into the details, you find out that the Asians got massacred because they had especially heavy real estate losses.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: The Income Shortfall

                    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                    They don't see real estate as a bubble, even when it pops. They are devout in their belief that real estate only goes up although there may be temporary "dips."
                    Yea it was only 5 years ago that the American belief that housing only goes up was widespread too. AFAIK Chinese society does tend to have a bias for RE and saving, but even then they'll only tolerate so much stupidity/losses.

                    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                    I am not making an argument for speculating in real estate in the hopes that one can find a rich Chinese sucker to take the hot potato.
                    OK sorry. Sounded like you and aaron were expecting the very high end homes would see little to no price depreciation and/or some price apreciation mainly due to rich foreigners propping up bubblish prices.

                    Originally posted by Milton Kuo View Post
                    However, for Chinese households, that number can go as high as 70%.
                    AFAIK you can't really get a home loan anymore in the US if your DTI is > 55% on the deal, and that is even if you're going with a bank willing to "tweak" things a bit to get the deal done. Very very very few rich forgeiners who are probably willing to buy outright on million dollar plus homes I bet.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: The Income Shortfall

                      Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
                      Yea it was only 5 years ago that the American belief that housing only goes up was widespread too. AFAIK Chinese society does tend to have a bias for RE and saving, but even then they'll only tolerate so much stupidity/losses.
                      You give the Chinese too much credit. When it comes to real estate, they really are that stupid. The downturn in Hong Kong real estate in the late 1990s was incredible and prices today are once again insane. By the way, in case you cannot tell from my name, I am of Chinese descent and the opinions I hear from Chinese people regarding real estate just takes my breath away.

                      OK sorry. Sounded like you and aaron were expecting the very high end homes would see little to no price depreciation and/or some price apreciation mainly due to rich foreigners propping up bubblish prices.
                      I'm not one to flog real estate but there is a lot of money sloshing around and, for certain parts of the country, there is a very real possibility that dumb Chinese money will prop up and maybe even drive up prices.

                      AFAIK you can't really get a home loan anymore in the US if your DTI is > 55% on the deal, and that is even if you're going with a bank willing to "tweak" things a bit to get the deal done. Very very very few rich forgeiners who are probably willing to buy outright on million dollar plus homes I bet.
                      I was referring to leverage in the Chinese real estate markets, not the U.S. ones. However, the key point is that many Chinese are willing to sell themselves into virtual slavery to buy real estate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: The Income Shortfall

                        One thing I learned from the Bay Area is that the absolute level of housing prices isn't itself as relevant as the localized income growth.

                        House prices in Palo Alto, for example, were damned expensive even in 1981. However, if you had gone full debt serf in 1981, your income likely would have grown to compensate in the ensuring 20 years.

                        This same dynamic, however, was not true in 2003.

                        At the end of the day, China's income still appears to be growing.

                        I do think that even so the price of property in China has overreached even a high rate of income growth.

                        Mainlanders are naive in many ways, and especially so financially.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: The Income Shortfall

                          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                          One thing I learned from the Bay Area is that the absolute level of housing prices isn't itself as relevant as the localized income growth.

                          House prices in Palo Alto, for example, were damned expensive even in 1981. However, if you had gone full debt serf in 1981, your income likely would have grown to compensate in the ensuring 20 years.
                          Wage growth and a good number of high-paying jobs appear to be what's keeping property prices in the Bay Area from dropping as much as other parts of California. Even so, housing prices are punishingly high relative to median household income.

                          Your Palo Alto example is interesting because it is exactly what further reinforces many Chinese people's belief that real estate is a can't-miss investment. They see that going into debt serfdom in 1981 worked out in the long run and believe that it'll work out again. What these wannabe-rentiers fail to recognize is the powerful effect the then newly-passed Proposition 13 had on real estate price inflation. With over 30 years to inflate real estate prices, that kind of exceptional price inflation is over.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: The Income Shortfall

                            FWIW, Some neighborhoods here in South Florida are still popular for wealthy South American capital flight. Flavor of the month for the past few years has been Venezuelans. Back in '08, a friend sold a McMansion in a gated country club community for $1.1M cash money to a Venezuelan. Today it's worth about 900K. So much for safe haven.

                            Also, a fair amount of Brazilian money entering the market here. Brazilian money is not capital flight, so much, as it is just the natural inclination for wealthy Latins to have a pied a terre in Miami.
                            Greg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: The Income Shortfall

                              Originally posted by Milton Kuo
                              Wage growth and a good number of high-paying jobs appear to be what's keeping property prices in the Bay Area from dropping as much as other parts of California. Even so, housing prices are punishingly high relative to median household income.
                              I didn't say prices in the Bay Area weren't dropping now, they absolutely are.

                              I'm just noting that in the 80s and 90s, there was sufficient wage growth that there was light at the end of the tunnel.

                              The industry averages show clearly there is little if any wage growth now, nor has there been for near on a decade.

                              My friend who bought the Los Altos place - he's now retesting the lows in Zillow price first reached in 2008 - more than 20% down.

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