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  • #61
    Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
    If I have a job for which I am willing to pay $10/hour, and if there are more people willing to fill that job than I could ever utilize, then why should some 3rd party tell me I have to pay $12/hour?
    Because it'd be a net benefit for the entire economy as was already mentioned?

    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
    I didn't lobby the Government for a maximum wage law when my wage rates were increasing at about 7%/year from 2004-2008; I paid what the market required.
    People's wages have been declining since the 70's while they've been working harder than ever. Whatever you've paid your workers extra during those years has likely already been wiped out since then.


    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
    All I'm asking is that I now have the ability to pay the current market rate (as dictated by plenty of interested workers)
    What?! Do you realize how out of touch with reality this makes you sound? You think the workers dictate wages these days? In this economic and pro-rich political climate?! Do you realize how high unemployment is, even using the gov's juked stats? Or how the duration of unemployment has sky rocketed vs. previous recessions and recoveries? Do you even know the middle class is shrinking rapidly? Its really ******* bad out there right now and many will take almost anything they can get, even crap jobs that pay crap wages, THAT is why you've got so many "interested" workers. They're not interested, they're desperate!

    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
    It really doesn't matter what YOU think about that person not being able to live on $10/hour.
    The only thing to quibble about with a living wage pay level is the minimum standard of living you want it to support. And except for in fairly poor and/or small communities $10/hr won't be enough to live on. You sure as hell can't retire on it or even pay for most medical expenses and fewer places offer benefits every year. You can't do that with $13-14/hr either of course, but at least you'd be able to keep a roof over your head and feed yourself OK food. Not a good or even decent roof or food, but OK.

    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
    Maybe they are 18 and looking to build a resume, maybe they are not the primary bread winner and the monetary aspect is not their primary decision criteria, etc.
    That is a lot of maybes that aren't lining up with reality right now given the high unemployment, unless you believe that for whatever reason millions and millions of people suddenly decided to get laid off or fired after 2008 or so. But even if we assume they're true for the vast overwhelming majority why do you believe it is OK that these people should be paid less than what it would cost for them to live on? Do you understand at all how expensive college is these days and how hard it is to pay that off with Mc-wages or Starbucks wages or even $13-14/hr? Or how much medical expenses are even with insurance? Or just high how the cost of living is in general? Very very very very few non-rich work just for the hell of it and even people looking to build a resume need to afford food and a place to sleep.

    Originally posted by rjwjr View Post
    The bottom line, again, is that I'm wiliing to pay $10/hour and plenty of potential workers will freely fill that job at that rate. Anything else is opinion and complication in my mind.
    You can't approach or fix complex societal issues by focusing on fixes that only benefit yourself and/or relatively small portions of the population. Especially if you're going to ignore and/or downplay the current economic situation for the vast majority of people right now in the US. I mean it doesn't it cross your mind at all to ask why so many people are willing to work for $10/hr even if they can't afford to pay their bills on that sort of wage? Sure you can just shrug and say, "well that is the price that the market will bear right now so who cares, CAPITALISM WOOOO" but that view leaves little to room for a good society or morals or ethics or even reality. After all we don't have a free unmanipulated market right now, and never have really its always been subject to the whims of lobbyist directed government and corporations, and if wages keep getting driven down while the cost of everything else rises people won't be able to spend anything but on the bare essentials. So you and others will go out of business anyways, or at least be made much much poorer. Everyone but those able to twist the rules to suit their ends loses in that situation.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

      Originally posted by gnk View Post
      I want to add one more thing I used to say years ago:

      When you trade with nations that produce the same things you do, but have a fraction of your workplace protection laws, minimum wage, environmental laws, etc.. ultimately, you will be importing their poverty as well as their cheap goods.

      Traditional global trade/adam smith neoclassical economics dictated that it was in your interest to produce what you do best, and trade with others that produce something different. It's a win win. For example, Northern countries sell Maple Syrup to countries that produce sugar cane. Silk for guns, etc...

      ... "fair trade" We trade goods with trading partners that have similar wage laws, workplace laws, environmental laws, etc...
      Thank you for at least mentioning the point that others left out in their "outrage" expressed to rjwjr: all you really do with minimum wage laws, OSHA, FICA and the rest is force
      small businesses out of business when "free" trade allows their competitors to price them out.

      Their employees then have a minimum wage of zero.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

        mesyn191,

        Your points are well made; but aimed at the wrong person. rjwr is precisely correct with his attitude, as also Raz. Their viewpoint is from that of the business owner that has to make paycheck every week or month. At that level, it is the survivor that can pay their way and the going can get VERY rough down at their level.

        They do not define the pay rates; it is the underlying prosperity of their region, their industry, that defines the level of pay they can afford to pay to keep their workers in a job.

        The greater the underlying prosperity, the better the pay.

        Now, yes, one can and many do, make a sound argument for a minimum wage. But that is always a product of the lack of underlying prosperity. Let me give you a good example; you wish to employ the very best coded welders. Well, they normally work for the largest engineering companies, laying down oil or gas pipelines is a good example. To get one to work for you, you will have to match the wages they are paid by the companies laying down those pipelines. You will not get them for less. They are top line and they know it and expect to be paid accordingly.

        Their working environment is prosperous; they can do the job, they get very good pay. So if you want to be able to employ them for your own operation; you need a final customer that can afford to pay what it costs you to employ them. if not, then you have no option but to downgrade your own expectations. Pay less and make do with what walks through the door.

        It is the underlying prosperity of the potential customer that defines local pay rates.

        In times of good prosperity, it will become evident to another, potential competitor, that they can pay slightly more to your employees to enable their new business to compete at the same process. Thus then it is competition from a local competitor that is the only acceptable mechanism to increase pay.

        The only reason minimum pay rates became the norm is due to a lack of underlying prosperity; that, in turn, was caused by the lack of investment over the long term

        We, all of us, must accept that the business owner is only going to respond to competition for their employees. It is IMHO incorrect to suggest that that is the responsibility of the business owner.

        That is the true, today unrecognised function, the ultimate responsibility of the major financial institutions.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

          Originally posted by Raz View Post
          Thank you for at least mentioning the point that others left out in their "outrage" expressed to rjwjr: all you really do with minimum wage laws, OSHA, FICA and the rest is force
          small businesses out of business when "free" trade allows their competitors to price them out.

          Their employees then have a minimum wage of zero.

          +1

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
            mesyn191,

            Your points are well made; but aimed at the wrong person. rjwr is precisely correct with his attitude, as also Raz. Their viewpoint is from that of the business owner that has to make paycheck every week or month. At that level, it is the survivor that can pay their way and the going can get VERY rough down at their level.
            Yea I get that they're approching things from their perspective (ie. business owner), the thing that they and others refuse to consider is that what is best for the business owner isn't best for the country or society as a whole. They only want to look at things from their end (ie. increase profits + drive down expenses) and refuse to consider the full implications of the fact that people can only spend what they make and what that means for the economy. So no, rjwr isn't precisely correct with his attitude, and for the vast majority of wage earners it has been very rough for a very long time now and it will likely continue to be so for many many more years.

            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
            They do not define the pay rates; it is the underlying prosperity of their region, their industry, that defines the level of pay they can afford to pay to keep their workers in a job.
            They as individuals don't, they're likely to small a fish to effect their local region or state, but then that was never in question or implied. After all the discussion and article was about a living wage and/or raising wages in general and the benefit that would have for the country, at least that was what I thought it was about. Yea I get ranty at times, but that is not me placing personal blame, that is me getting frustrated.

            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
            The greater the underlying prosperity, the better the pay.
            You, uh, didn't happen to notice that chart I posted a ways up the page that shows wages vs productivity over time did you? Even if you want to ignore wealth disparity issue what you're saying does not seem to be lining up with the reality that wage earners have been experiencing since the 70's. It also very clearly shows that wage earners certainly are not dictating anything and haven't for a long time, unless you're arguing that workers WANT to be paid less to work more?

            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
            We, all of us, must accept that the business owner is only going to respond to competition for their employees. It is IMHO incorrect to suggest that that is the responsibility of the business owner.
            Each of us has our own personal responsibilities that must be respected true, but what ever happened to having responsibility and respect towards each other? Not just as country men but just as one man/woman to another? If we all just focused on our own personal bottom line and nothing but the world would be a pretty awful place to live.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

              Originally posted by Raz View Post
              Thank you for at least mentioning the point that others left out in their "outrage" expressed to rjwjr: all you really do with minimum wage laws, OSHA, FICA and the rest is force [COLOR=#000080]small businesses out of business when "free" trade allows their competitors to price them out.
              You know there was a time, back before WWII some say even WWI when dinosaurs roamed the earth or something no one really knows or can find out, that none of these organizations existed and workers were generally paid far less than they are now and their working conditions were much worse too.

              Originally posted by Raz View Post
              Their employees then have a minimum wage of zero.
              OK so since its hypothetical time: what happens when people have little to no disposable income and stop spending money on everything but the essentials, what happens to the economy then? Bonus question: what do you think will happen if the cost of living continues to rise while wages stagnate or fall in the above situation?

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
                Yea I get that they're approching things from their perspective (ie. business owner), the thing that they and others refuse to consider is that what is best for the business owner isn't best for the country or society as a whole. They only want to look at things from their end (ie. increase profits + drive down expenses) and refuse to consider the full implications of the fact that people can only spend what they make and what that means for the economy. So no, rjwr isn't precisely correct with his attitude, and for the vast majority of wage earners it has been very rough for a very long time now and it will likely continue to be so for many many more years.


                They as individuals don't, they're likely to small a fish to effect their local region or state, but then that was never in question or implied. After all the discussion and article was about a living wage and/or raising wages in general and the benefit that would have for the country, at least that was what I thought it was about. Yea I get ranty at times, but that is not me placing personal blame, that is me getting frustrated.


                You, uh, didn't happen to notice that chart I posted a ways up the page that shows wages vs productivity over time did you? Even if you want to ignore wealth disparity issue what you're saying does not seem to be lining up with the reality that wage earners have been experiencing since the 70's. It also very clearly shows that wage earners certainly are not dictating anything and haven't for a long time, unless you're arguing that workers WANT to be paid less to work more?


                Each of us has our own personal responsibilities that must be respected true, but what ever happened to having responsibility and respect towards each other? Not just as country men but just as one man/woman to another? If we all just focused on our own personal bottom line and nothing but the world would be a pretty awful place to live.
                Soziale Marktwirtschaft.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                  Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                  Everybody except the US has had the benefit of US protection (costs!). I think that if they had been loaded with their own defense costs after WWII, they (Europe and Japan) would be much poorer (and US much richer).

                  As usual, economics turns out to be full of uncontrollable variables, unprovable counter-factuals or unprovable negatives.


                  Russia, Germany, Japan and others could send a check at any time...

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                    Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
                    You know there was a time, back before WWII some say even WWI when dinosaurs roamed the earth or something no one really knows or can find out, that none of these organizations existed and workers were generally paid far less than they are now and their working conditions were much worse too.

                    The point I made was simple - but you don't want to hear it or accept it because it doesn't fit with your ideology or desires.

                    When I'm forced to bear the cost of these things and yet go head-to-head in price competition with others who produce the same product but
                    DO NOT have to bear the cost for ANY of those things, guess who will get the sale? And if I can't sell my product because I cannot produce it for what they can, then your idea of "fairness" and "social responsibility" doesn't mean jack-sqat, dude. You can pester someone else because I'm out of business. Comprende??


                    Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post
                    OK so since its hypothetical time: what happens when people have little to no disposable income and stop spending money on everything but the essentials, what happens to the economy then? Bonus question: what do you think will happen if the cost of living continues to rise while wages stagnate or fall in the above situation?
                    And since we're talking about the BOTTOM LINE of a small business, one that will go broke paying for everything you deem to be "fair", and your government deems necessary to make my workplace "safe" while my competitors don't have to pay for those things, just what does your point have to do with my broke ass? (And this isn't hypothetical - it's reality.)


                    Last edited by Raz; February 17, 2012, 01:04 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                      Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                      Sure. If what we're doing isn't working so well, and hasn't for around 3 decades now, might as well switch to something like that right? At the very least we might actually get the strong(er) social safety nets along with the sustained high unemployment.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                        Originally posted by Raz View Post

                        The point I made was simple - but you don't want to hear it or accept it because it doesn't fit with your ideology or desires.

                        The point certainly is simple but you didn't really make it. You just stated it, without anything to back it up. I mean hell just about the whole developed world is having to deal with the issue of cheap 3rd world produced products undermining local or national industry BUT they don't go around blaming government institutions that ensure a safe work place or try to stop white collar crime. They certainly don't recommend that those institutions should be eliminated either. After all, who the hell wants to work in an unsafe work place or have white collar crime run even more rampant then it does now?

                        Originally posted by Raz View Post

                        And if I can't sell my product because I cannot produce it for what they can, then your idea of "fairness" and "social responsibility" doesn't mean jack-sqat, dude. You can pester someone else because I'm out of business. Comprende??
                        I get that and I get what you're saying, the problem we're having here is that you're blaming the wrong people for the wrong things and your proposed solutions are at least as ideologically motivated as mine but bad for reasons already mentioned earlier in the thread and heck the article too. OSHA or FICA or isn't gonna put you out of business and getting rid of them would at very best only offer a minor boost to the economy and your business before other bigger problems cropped up.

                        Originally posted by Raz View Post

                        And since we're talking about the BOTTOM LINE of a small business, one that will go broke paying for everything you deem to be "fair", and your government deems necessary to make my workplace "safe" while my competitors don't have to pay for those things, just what does your point have to do with my broke ass? (And this isn't hypothetical - it's reality.)

                        Well its not a question of fair really, no one wants to work in an unsafe work place or have unrestrained white collar crime right? Even the workers in the 3rd world countries don't, they simply have no choice. Do you believe it is reasonable to further your profits by taking away that choice from anyone, much less US labor? Does a business that treats its workers like crap and pays them crap deserve to stay in business? Also didn't you say you made about double the avg. US wage earner last year or something in another thread? Sure, that might not be as much as you'd like to be paid but if that is the case then you're not really broke.
                        Last edited by mesyn191; February 17, 2012, 02:59 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                          It makes no sense for anyone, and I do mean anyone; getting up tight and personal about this. There are very deep structural problems and they in turn present, on both sides; often extreme difficulties. If there is one thing about iTulip, it is that we all debate as impartially as possible.

                          To give a little perspective here; I am a penniless British inventor living in two rooms and am permanently on the breadline. Regardless, I have earned respect for bringing my own point of view to many aspects of the debate. It would be all too easy to get up tight about how I had been "shafted" by .... whomever! No one will take me seriously if all I do is blather on about my problems or target others as the reason for my own lack of prosperity.

                          And, yes, I am, continuously, working on extensive plans to dig myself out of the mess I am in.

                          Leave personalities out of this; the underlying problem is much too important.

                          We are dealing with a major structural problem within our national institutions, (both private financial, as well as within the ethos of the government institutions that regulate them), that has its roots right at the top of our respective nations.

                          Fighting amongst ourselves does not address the true nature of the debate.

                          As I see it, mandating an increase of wages is to grasp the wrong end of the stick. As Raz and others show, all that leads to is instability. And if we need a good example, I hear that Apple have been able to get their product that they sell for $499 manufactured for $8. Now no one in the US can compete with that. And mandating an increase of wages in the US will not serve any purpose other than to make it even more difficult for anyone to compete in the US.

                          The reason for the instability is that at the full international level; all of the major financial institutions have placed almost all of your savings; YES, your savings, as investment into the production of the Apple products in another nation for $8.

                          THAT is the underlying structural problem. And, no, I do not believe in any other solution than debate.

                          I am stuck where I am because I could not and still cannot get access to free enterprise investment into what I want to do. That problem is also compounded by, for example, the US does not honour its Patent Co-operation Treaties. This is not particular to me, it is a structural problem deeply affecting millions like me. So that is why I do not concentrate upon my own problems as that would take me "Nowhere".

                          We all of us have to accept that we must raise this debate to the correct level; the underlying structural problem at the fully national and international level.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
                            As I see it, mandating an increase of wages is to grasp the wrong end of the stick....And if we need a good example, I hear that Apple have been able to get their product that they sell for $499 manufactured for $8. Now no one in the US can compete with that.
                            Actually depending on what is being made they can and do. Note that article is from 2010 and since then the profitability gap between US and Chinese made goods has only been shrinking. I've read elsewhere its usually around a 20% difference at least as of late 2011, which is why businesses are starting to try and outsource now to SE Asia or even Africa, but can't find the article, again. :sigh: Maybe instead of looking at ways to drive down wages as well as eliminate safety standards and regulations business owner's interests would be better served if they focused their efforts on convincing law makers to further improve infrastructure which would make it cheaper over all to do business here in the states.

                            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
                            And mandating an increase of wages in the US will not serve any purpose other than to make it even more difficult for anyone to compete in the US.
                            But people's wages as is are too low to maintain the high amount of consumption needed to keep the economy growing. Now if you can lower the cost of living then great problem solved, except right now that is probably even more politically difficult than raising wages. After all, not only do the rentiers not want their respective gravy trains to stop running they want more and more of the gravy for themselves and are all to eager and willing to use their cash to ensure that congress will make that so.

                            Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
                            The reason for the instability is that at the full international level; all of the major financial institutions have placed almost all of your savings; YES, your savings, as investment into the production of the Apple products in another nation for $8.
                            I'd rather say that Apple had invested in another country willing to underpay and mistreat their workers to benefit their bottom line, and that the major financial institutions have placed my savings in each others' pockets by way of various bailouts and fee skimming. Same results but a big difference in the why of it.
                            Last edited by mesyn191; February 17, 2012, 06:51 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                              Originally posted by mesyn191 View Post

                              The point certainly is simple but you didn't really make it. You just stated it, without anything to back it up. I mean hell just about the whole developed world is having to deal with the issue of cheap 3rd world produced products undermining local or national industry BUT they don't go around blaming government institutions that ensure a safe work place or try to stop white collar crime. They certainly don't recommend that those institutions should be eliminated either. After all, who the hell wants to work in an unsafe work place or have white collar crime run even more rampant then it does now?


                              I get that and I get what you're saying, the problem we're having here is that you're blaming the wrong people for the wrong things and your proposed solutions are at least as ideologically motivated as mine but bad for reasons already mentioned earlier in the thread and heck the article too. OSHA or FICA or isn't gonna put you out of business and getting rid of them would at very best only offer a minor boost to the economy and your business before other bigger problems cropped up.


                              Well its not a question of fair really, no one wants to work in an unsafe work place or have unrestrained white collar crime right? Even the workers in the 3rd world countries don't, they simply have no choice. Do you believe it is reasonable to further your profits by taking away that choice from anyone, much less US labor? Does a business that treats its workers like crap and pays them crap deserve to stay in business? Also didn't you say you made about double the avg. US wage earner last year or something in another thread? Sure, that might not be as much as you'd like to be paid but if that is the case then you're not really broke.
                              How old are you, mesyn191? And what is your vocation and employment history?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Galbraith proposes 12 dollar minimum wage

                                Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
                                And mandating an increase of wages in the US will not serve any purpose other than to make it even more difficult for anyone to compete in the US.
                                Bingo. Chris gets to the root of the problem with the observation above.

                                I doubt I'll comment further here since it is frustrating attempting to reason with the other side's spokesperson, but here's a how ridiculous the other side's argument is...

                                In my initial post, I stated that I'm finally having to join the offshoring bandwagon because I can take advantage of $5/hr wage rates in Mexico instead of the $10/hour I pay in the US.

                                mesyn191 counters by saying that the $12/hour minumum wage is fair in his opinion and it is my moral duty to pay it.

                                YOUR ARGUMENT DOESN'T HOLD UP TO REALITY AT $10/HOUR, SO IT SURE WON'T HOLD UP TO YOUR $12/HOUR IDEOLOGY! Reality wake-up call, buddy, I'm already shipping those jobs to Mexico with my market rate at $10/hour and if you raise my forced minimum rate to $12/hour then I'm shipping even more there. I know you don't see this, or will argue that laws should be passed and/or penalties imposed so I can't outsource. Fine, then my next step is to close down here and actually re-open in Mexico or Chile or China or Taiwan, or more likely to sell the company and let someone else try to maintain the payroll (cause that's what usually happens when an entity buys an existing business, huge hiring spree, right?!)

                                Guys like you are about to cause Atlas Shrugged to be moved from the fiction to the non-fiction section of our local booksellers. Again, I will not be responding, mesyn191, so you are free to have the last word (unless raz continues to tear you a new one that is).
                                "...the western financial system has already failed. The failure has just not yet been realized, while the system remains confident that it is still alive." Jesse

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