The Apple of their Eye

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

Some rambling thoughts somewhat on topic to this thread.

I notice today that Apples has cash on hand of 97.6 billion dollars, about $104 per share.
That is a very big pile of money. Number this big are really hard to grasp.

Foxconn employs about 800,000 people at an average wage of about $300/ month (that's a base wage of $150 / month doubled for overtime pay)
So Foxconn's monthly payroll is about $250mm, or $3 billion a year
If Apple froze it's COH and made no interest on it, and used it to pay Foxconn's payroll, those 800,000 people would all get paychecks for more than 33 years.

And industry at this scale is hard to grasp.
Foxconn instantly put 8,000 people to the task of re-tooling a giant production line, and 96 hours later it was producing 10,000 units per day of a complex little gizmo, all essentially flawless.

I think of how proud we Americans are of our effort in World War 2 as the arsenal of democracy, making tanks and aircraft at Detroit plants converted from producing Cadillacs, Chryslers, and Fords. Can you imaging how these Chinese giants could convert to a war effort? Why couldn't Foxcon take a week and convert from 10,000 iPhones a day to 10,000 missile seeker heads a day at that plant?

[flintlock]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

it makes me want to go find a mountain somewhere and become a hermit.

I've had the same thought at times!

The race to the bottom is well on its way. Workers roused from their sleep in company dormitories? This is what we call progress? No, the Genie is out of the bottle and there is no going back I'm afraid. The huge popularity in Dystopian novels is no fluke. The Hunger Games trilogy is #1,2, and 3 on Amazon best seller list. I suppose people want a glimpse into the future?

I doubt the situation could be resolved today, even with a benevolent dictator with limitless power to change policy. And the politicians in Washington are anything but decisive or benevolent.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

I assign blame to the fundamental nature of large corporations. Chomsky has posted some great info on this topic in old threads, still worth reading.

[flintlock]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

"When an Apple team visited, the Chinese plant’s owners were already constructing a new wing. “This is in case you give us the contract,” the manager said, according to a former Apple executive. The Chinese government had agreed to underwrite costs for numerous industries, and those subsidies had trickled down to the glass-cutting factory. It had a warehouse filled with glass samples available to Apple, free of charge. The owners made engineers available at almost no cost. They had built on-site dormitories so employees would be available 24 hours a day. "

So, it's all about the average Chinese worker being willing to work for a little less money and few more hours? Also, I wonder, how much time and money are being spent by the Chinese factories on worker safety and environmental protection? If a worker is disabled in an on-the-job accident, is Workman's Comp available or is he just let go and sent back to the farm with a pat on the back? Are these factories complying with strict environmental rules or are they trashing the near-by rivers and air?

I'm not saying the US Gov should or should not be underwriting industries. I'm not saying that OSHA, EPA and other federal agencies are overall good or bad for the country. I just think this article is not quite presenting a complete picture in comparing the costs of doing business in the US to China.

Subtly

The wrong fork in the road that was taken was taken many years ago when the US decided to get in the game against countries like China. Its like NCAA football trying to go up against the NFL. Better to stay in your own league and play than try to compete with others stronger and faster. In this case substitute "cheaper, and more flexible, with disregard for safety and the environment" for muscle and speed. The US would have been better off convincing trade partners to stay in its own league than trying to seek out greener pastures. Now, perhaps all the players would have left early for the draft! But in the long run their NFL becomes the World Football League and nobody wants to watch it anymore.

Apologies for the horrible analogy!

[flintlock]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

I assign blame to the fundamental nature of large corporations. Chomsky has posted some great info on this topic in old threads, still worth reading.

I agree. But its hard to point that out without sounding like some anti-capitalist whack job. The question has to be asked. "Does the economy exist for the people or the other way around". Corporations will of course always work for their own best interest, as they should. Problem is, nobody is working for the people's interest anymore. There is no push-back against the large corporation like there used to be. Given its own devices, it will eat nations alive.

I think we are definitely headed towards a one nation world order. National boundaries will no longer be relevant. What a depressing, boring world it will become. Just cogs in the machine.

[don]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

Chinese responses, filtered through the NY Times:

Below are some of the hundreds of comments about the Chinese article that were posted on Caixin’s Web site and on Weibo.com, a Chinese microblogging Web site, and other Chinese social media platforms. These comments were collected and translated by Wang Qidi, Cathy Chang and Bao Beibei.

I read this story and I’m saddened. It’s not only Apple that should be blamed, but also the system that tolerates its existence. Made-in-China should not be synonymous with the blood and sacrifice of young lives. — Evita

When local governments are trying to attract new investments to their regions, they always emphasize the low-cost labor in their areas. How pathetic! — Jiangsu

By the way, construction workers and farmers are also living a harsh life in China, shall we also boycott housing and grains? — Zhou Zhimei

It’s ridiculous that the local government is trying to promote the city’s image while horrible accidents are still happening like this. If what is prohibited in the U.S. is highly protected here by the local authorities, we will never be treated with dignity. —

There are two stories about Apple: one is about its brilliant business performance, and the other is about the blood and sweat behind Apple miracles. I strongly recommend that all Apple fans read this. Corporations should bear social responsibilities, and customers should also understand and be responsible to the society. —

Without Apple, Chinese workers will be worse off. I hope China can some day soon have dozens of its own companies like Apple, who (only) work on high-end research and development and send manufacturing lines to Africa. — Anonymous

Even though Apple should be ethically condemned, the key point is: whether the working conditions inside the factories are supervised by law. This (supervision) is the duty of judicial officers and labor unions. Now everything is driven only by G.D.P., so which government official would dare supervise those companies? They (the governments) have long reduced themselves to the servant of the giant enterprises. — Occasional Think

If people saw what kind of life workers lived before they found a job at Foxconn, they would come to an opposite conclusion of this story: that Apple is such a philanthropist. — Zhengchu1982

This article demonstrates multiple perspectives. The social responsibility of Apple, the moral standing of Apple’s fans, the monitoring function of the government, the labor rights awareness of the workers, and the supervision power of the media… All these aspects were discussed but none of them is doing what they should have done. One detail in the story caught my attention. The problem of n-hexane and industrial dust is not yet to be solved after such a long time, and we need to think about why. — Wozhizhiyi

Apple has gained so much sales revenues from China. Do you think the company really cares about the conditions of those workers? I think they are just proud of having an Apple product. —

The story of Apple is just an individual case. There will be endless problems from Pear or Banana … even if you revealed Apple’s inside conduct. We have to solve the fundamental problems, which include labor laws, corporate social responsibility, China’s industrial policies and others. — Huang Xiaoshan

If Foxconn were to abide by the labor law, which is supposed to protect workers and keep them basically to 8 hours a day and 5 days a week, their wages will be lower. If workers establish a formal labor union, lots of workers will be disappointed and return home to rural areas. The production cost of Chinese manufacturers will increase, and those Chinese factories will lose their competitive advantage. Who would be happy if that really happened? —

Cheap labor is China’s core competitiveness over the past 30 years, which helps Chinese products win the global market share and leads to China’s rapid economic growth. Those workers created over $300 million of foreign exchange reserves and the so-called “China’s Miracle” at the expense of this — a waste of resources and heavy
pollution. —

If the story is simply blaming Apple and Foxconn, then it is simplifying the problem. Other companies including HTC, Lenovo, HP and Sony, and their OEM (original equipment manufacturer) companies such as Wistron, Quanta and Inventec, share the same situation. Workers of small OEM enterprises are working in even harsher environments and having more overtime. The root is that they are unable to reach a higher position in the industry chain. Also, there are no effective labor organizations in those factories and the government tends to shield huge companies because of their profits. — Freestyle-coming

It is biased to blame Apple for everything. The government should supervise the companies and their conduct, not the other way around. It is natural for enterprises to pursue economic profits. But corporate social responsibility needs to be backed up and monitored by regulations and laws. — ChouzhuDaddy

I’m working with an Apple supplier. We have been learning Apple’s philosophy. Among all the Taiwan companies, Foxconn has always been the major company. The problems should be blamed on bad policies and regulations. Businessmen are always chasing profits. Also, companies with more employees tend to have more problems. —

I’m very upset after reading this. This is a universal problem, not only Apple’s. Apple cannot manage its suppliers to fulfill their suppliers’ social responsibilities. This is out of Apple’s business control. There’s no difference between those workers and the ones suffering serious mental stress. They have to work overtime until midnight as well, though they are sitting in the office. But seriously, it’s very uncomfortable to sit in front of a computer all day. —

1) It is a pity that, we know that for Apple fans, such a story won’t stop their enthusiasm. Just like people are still buying Nike and Adidas shoes, knowing that shoe manufacturing is highly environmentally hazardous; 2) if a government cannot guarantee the welfare of its own 120 million disadvantaged population and even suppresses their appeals, then how could we require an overseas company to protect the labor rights in a Chinese factory? — Jionglegejiong

If more rigorous labor protection standards and 8-5 working time protocol are being strictly executed, we can expect a plunge of the workers’ wages. If labor organizations with monopoly rights are established, those rural migrant workers who cannot find a position in the organization will be forced back to their hopeless villages. Manufacturing costs in China will increase in other ways and therefore harm its competitive advantage. Under such conditions, huge companies and advocates get to harvest their reputation and sense of achievement, but who else will get the real profit? — YeyeGem

I told some people about the terrible working conditions in the Apple suppliers’ factories, and asked how they felt. They said, “We can’t do anything about it. That’s what cheap labor is about….” People are getting numb to this…. That’s horrible. —

Working conditions in smaller factories are even worse (than Foxconn). They have even longer work hours. The major reason is that suppliers are not at the top of the value chain and major brands can easily replace them. Also, workers in China do not have labor unions, and the Chinese government always protects the large companies. —

When the explosion happened, I was working for media in Chengdu. Domestic media were all silenced and only allowed to use the (Xinhua) official report, because that (Foxconn factory) was a key project. Compare to what The New York Times wrote, the gap really saddened my heart. — Chen Qiye

Apple is definitely a vampire factory. But if you boycott Apple, what would those workers eat without demand (for Apple products)? By then they would even lose their job! And now the U.S. is planning to move a chunk of manufacturing back to its soil, as manufacturing costs in China are soaring. What would these surplus workers be facing? The profit margin for the entire Chinese manufacturing sector is thin, nobody enjoys high salary and good benefits; yet their work intensity is strong and working conditions are poor. This is common, not only for the manufacturers of Apple! Think first how to change the miserable status quo of a giant manufacturing country! — Quasi-Economist

If not to buy Apple, what’s the substitute – Samsung? Don’t you know that Samsung’s products are from its OEM factory in Tianjin? Samsung workers’ income and benefits are even worse than those at Foxconn. If not to buy iPad – (do you think) I will buy Android Pad? Have you ever been to the OEM factories for Lenovo and ASUS? Quanta, Compaq … factories of other companies are all worse than those for Apple. Not to buy iPod – (do you think) I will buy Aigo, Meizu? Do you know that Aigo’s Shenzhen factory will not pay their workers until the 19th of the second month? If you were to quit, fine, I’m sorry, your salary will be withdrawn. Foxconn never dares to do such things. First, their profit margin is higher than peers as they manufacture for Apple. Second, at least those foreign devils will regularly audit factories. Domestic brands will never care if workers live or die. I am not speaking for Foxconn. I am just speaking as an insider of this industry, and telling you some disturbing truth. — Anonymous

If we really seek the ultimate sources and manufacturing conditions of everything we use in our daily life, we might be truly frustrated by the cruelty of the process. It is not fair to transfer the responsibility of the huge companies to the consumers, and to claim that “no purchase, no killings.” — SmilingAssassin1980

Many more comments in Chinese can be found on Caixin’s page on Weibo.com and in the comments section of caixin.com.

[DSpencer]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

This:

Hitherto [1848] it is questionable if all the mechanical inventions yet made have lightened the day's toil of any human being. -John Stewart Mill

Now go hand copy this quote once for every reader in this thread and then have them all delivered by horseback to prove the point.

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

Now go hand copy this quote once for every reader in this thread and then have them all delivered by horseback to prove the point.

Yeah, it was great when the internet came out and standard workweeks dropped to 30 hours with increased pay.

[kescwi]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

It seems as if momentum is carry us like a run away train more than a race. And what is it, an idolatrous philosophical belief in profit, the Horatio Alger myth, political ideology, all the above or some other form of hubris or maybe the 401k that has bought middle class complacency and encourages the willing suspension of disbelief regarding the rails running right thru their home?

That mountain looks very inviting, that or Gethsemane.

[DSpencer]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

Yeah, it was great when the internet came out and standard workweeks dropped to 30 hours with increased pay.

Yeah, the internet is useless. That's why I never use it. The printing press was another pointless invention. Really, if we were smart, we'd all go back to doing every task by hand so that we wouldn't have to work so hard.

All in good fun as I assume you don't believe the original quote in a literal sense. I can appreciate the idea. As soon as something can be done faster, it now has to be in order to keep up. But in reality not everything is a zero sum game. Working the same number of hours/week 300 years ago would not have given me a year-round climate controlled house and access to antibiotics if I get a life-threatening infection. As much as I complain, I consider myself fortunate in a long-term historical sense to live in a time where my life expectancy is over 40.

[davidstvz]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

Yeah, it was great when the internet came out and standard workweeks dropped to 30 hours with increased pay.

I can't tell if you're making a sarcastic comment about people spending 25% of their work week playing around on the Internet or not

[Thailandnotes]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

After our episode "Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory" aired this weekend, reports started coming out about a worker standoff at a Foxconn factory in Wuhan, China. Foxconn manufactures products for Apple and many other electronics brands, and in our episode Mike Daisey tells stories he heard from the workers he talked to outside the gates of a different Foxconn plant, in Shenzhen.

"According to news accounts, last week about 150 workers in Wuhan went to the roof of the Foxconn building for two days and threatened to commit mass suicide. Some reports put the number of employees at 300.They were upset because the company had moved them to a different production line."

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog...eat-at-foxconn

with pictures

[don]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

After our episode "Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory" aired this weekend, reports started coming out about a worker standoff at a Foxconn factory in Wuhan, China. Foxconn manufactures products for Apple and many other electronics brands, and in our episode Mike Daisey tells stories he heard from the workers he talked to outside the gates of a different Foxconn plant, in Shenzhen.

"According to news accounts, last week about 150 workers in Wuhan went to the roof of the Foxconn building for two days and threatened to commit mass suicide. Some reports put the number of employees at 300.They were upset because the company had moved them to a different production line."

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog...eat-at-foxconn

with pictures

Would the sons and daughters of peasants have threatened this action 'down on the farm'?

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

Yeah, the internet is useless. That's why I never use it. The printing press was another pointless invention. Really, if we were smart, we'd all go back to doing every task by hand so that we wouldn't have to work so hard.

The quote never said inventions were useless, or that they didn't make tasks easier. It said merely that they didn't lighten a day's toil. And I see little evidence that they do.

All in good fun as I assume you don't believe the original quote in a literal sense. I can appreciate the idea. As soon as something can be done faster, it now has to be in order to keep up. But in reality not everything is a zero sum game. Working the same number of hours/week 300 years ago would not have given me a year-round climate controlled house and access to antibiotics if I get a life-threatening infection. As much as I complain, I consider myself fortunate in a long-term historical sense to live in a time where my life expectancy is over 40.

What do you think living 300 years ago was like? You got a climate controlled home - the concept of fire in the middle of a dwelling is pretty damned old. So is the concept of living in caves (It's like geothermal heat-pumps for free. Go green).

The life-expectancy thing is somewhat a sham. "People are living longer," they tell you. It's not true. It's just that infant mortality rates drop. They're having babies in hospitals instead of farmhouses. That's all.

This absurd idea that everyone died in their 40s in the past is silly. The idea that people will soon commonly live to 110 needs to go. You get until your 70s or 80s unless something gets you first. Modern medical science combined with first-response times might get you an extra shot at a heart attack.

Sahelanthropus lived into his 70s 7 million years ago - the last few decades with a mangled jaw. People took care of him. Ramsees II went into his 80s 6,000 years ago, and Franklin through his 80s 300 years ago. It's like multiplying a dog's lifespan times 7 or something, weird, huh?

Tetracycline levels, likely from ancient beer, were sufficiently high as to be a consistent low-dose antibiotic, even though they didn't know why. Besides, most of the nastiest bugs (bacteria) forming death-risk infections were products of city-dwelling, particularly the type of dirty city-dwelling practiced in medieval Europe and Asia.

Anyhow, there are plenty of enjoyable modern conveniences and activities. But life was not so Hobbesian in the past as it is often made out to be, nor is it so gentile today.

Here's the low-down on workweeks over the last century. It bounces around a bit, but it seems to be rather stable.

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Apple of their Eye

I can't tell if you're making a sarcastic comment about people spending 25% of their work week playing around on the Internet or not

Well, the 20% time's legal, don't tell the about the other 5%! Shhhhh!