Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

[dcarrigg]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Is it really mostly 12 year old kids doing this kind of thing? Or is it organized crime?

Perhaps it is both. Well, at least there's a distinction there, isn't there? For P2P sharing, torrents, and the like, it's probably really mostly people 30 and younger just sharing and consuming media (much as we do here).

Kim Dotcom is perhaps another beast entirely, hosting copyrighted content and streaming it, and, while the same population consumes the media, he was able to amass wealth in the process.

I'm certain that there is copyrighted material that has been uploaded to iTulip - at least in the form of pictures and text. It's worth keeping in mind when considering SOPA/PIPA/ whatever new acronym on the matter is concocted.

Still, a large part of me can't help but feeling that we're not far from a point where we could have the something close to the whole of documented human knowledge freely available to anyone. There is something wonderful about this idea - something reminiscent of the arguments for public libraries two centuries ago.

Yet we will not do this because of the way income on media is made. I sincerely hope that someone smarter than myself comes up with a better way to monetize content than to erect paywalls through myriad distribution channels that are so numerous as to prevent all but the wealthiest of citizens from ever subscribing to all of them (this is particularly true for academia and scientific journals).

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

something reminiscent of the arguments for public libraries two centuries ago.

"And the artificial intelligence course, taught jointly by Stanford Research Professor of Computer Science and Google Fellow Sebastian Thrun and Google Director of Research Peter Norvig, had attracted an unprecedented 160,000 students from over 190 countries who were collectively querying the course database at more than 7,500 times a second."

http://engineering.stanford.edu/stan...-with-activity

[Prazak]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Perhaps, but I do draw a distinction between a Hitler's demonization of Jews to solidify his own power vs. Stalin's suppression of minorities in order to preserve Russian strategic interests.

The former is for no purpose other than self aggrandisement, the latter is a state issue.

I don't believe it's that clear cut. Stalin was also ruthless in consolidating his own power; Hitler was also ruthless in pursuit of state ends. Maybe on this topic of internal displacement of peoples, Stalin's motives were more clearly oriented toward state ends, but even Hitler's treatment of Jews, Roma, and the disabled followed a logic of ethnic purification that had less to do with consolidating his own power (the Wannsee Conference was convened at the height of his power) and more to do with a twisted conception of an ethnically superior Reich. The mind more readily recognizes the state ends at work in Stalin's purges, and recoils at perceiving any methods to Hitler's madness.

[c1ue]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Prison population growth has far outstripped US population growth though so you can't just blame it on that.

Certainly true. I merely pointed out that at the end of WW II, there were 5.5 million people in the gulags while the entire population of Russia at that time was 150 million. 2 million Americans vs. 300 million population is a far cry from that.

Given that it is mostly poor and black people in prison it could be argued that US prisons serve to repress blacks and the poor.

Again, a reasonable view. But I doubt anyone questions the patriotism of blacks and the poor.

I don't believe it's that clear cut. Stalin was also ruthless in consolidating his own power; Hitler was also ruthless in pursuit of state ends. Maybe on this topic of internal displacement of peoples, Stalin's motives were more clearly oriented toward state ends, but even Hitler's treatment of Jews, Roma, and the disabled followed a logic of ethnic purification that had less to do with consolidating his own power (the Wannsee Conference was convened at the height of his power) and more to do with a twisted conception of an ethnically superior Reich. The mind more readily recognizes the state ends at work in Stalin's purges, and recoils at perceiving any methods to Hitler's madness.

I'd say the difference in our opinions lies in timing.

Hitler rose to power with the platform of blaming Germany's ills on Jews, Catholics, and other 'bad people'. Sure, the 'final solution' didn't occur until well after Hitler consolidated his position, but it was very much a continuation of existing policies.

[mesyn191]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

5.5 million people in the gulags

This doesn't seem to be correct though.


Found this too, yea its wiki but still:

At the end of World War II, more than 5 million "displaced persons" from the Soviet Union survived in German captivity. About 3 million had been forced laborers (Ostarbeiters)^[32] in Germany and occupied territories.^[33][34] Survived POWs, about 1.5 million, repatriated Ostarbeiter, and other displaced persons, totally more than 4,000,000 people were sent to special NKVD filtration camps (not GULAG). By 1946, 80 per cent civilians and 20 per cent of PoWs were freed, 5 per cent of civilians, and 43 per cent of PoWs re-drafted, 10 per cent of civilians and 22 per cent of PoWs were sent to labor battalions, and 2 per cent of civilians and 15 per cent of the PoWs (226,127 out of 1,539,475 total) transferred to the NKVD, i.e. the GULAG.

2 million Americans vs. 300 million population is a far cry from that.

Its closer to 2.7 million right now actually but what you should really be looking at is how much and how fast the number of people in prison went up starting in the 1980's (around the time that rehabilitation programs started to get cut BTW) vs prior decades. That number keeps increasing at a fairly decent rate too and has been doing so for around 30 years with no end in site.

Again, a reasonable view. But I doubt anyone questions the patriotism of blacks and the poor.

Whether you're in prison due to racism or class warfare by your government vs political dissension it doesn't really matter, these are all failures of government/society and its kinda pointless to quibble about the difference.

[c1ue]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

This doesn't seem to be correct though.

I don't know where your numbers come from, but it is well documented from Soviet records that the number of deaths in the gulags was in the order of 2 to 3 million, and that countless more people actually entered and then left.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...gination=false

It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive. Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hitler were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. The total figure for the entire Stalinist period is likely between two million and three million.

No matter how you slice it, Stalin's imprisonment was a far greater impact than what is happening in the US today.

Whether you're in prison due to racism or class warfare by your government vs political dissension it doesn't really matter, these are all failures of government/society and its kinda pointless to quibble about the difference.

Perhaps, but I equally doubt that 15% to 25% of all US prisoners die before leaving. The prison situation in America is absolutely a terrible one - doubly so for a nation that supposedly enshrines liberty and citizen rights - but let's not get carried away in thinking it is just as bad or worse than the worst recent documented historical events.

[mesyn191]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

I don't know where your numbers come from

Chart is from the GULAG wiki.

but it is well documented from Soviet records that the number of deaths in the gulags was in the order of 2 to 3 million, and that countless more people actually entered and then left.

Number of deaths is a whole other ball game. The US private, state, and federal prisons look good in comparison to those numbers...but they're still mistreating the prisoners more and more every year. Arpaio's jail was only a hop, skip, and a jump away from the conditions in the GULAG's and there is no reason to believe that prisons won't continue to slide in their treatment of prisoners. Especially since so few voters and politicians seem to care at all about the prisoners.

No matter how you slice it, Stalin's imprisonment was a far greater impact than what is happening in the US today.

I don't know about that. The prison system is essentially creating a permanent under class with less rights than normal citizens who are often exploited for cheap labor under work programs and no one seems to care. And this underclass just keeps getting bigger and bigger each year.

Perhaps, but I equally doubt that 15% to 25% of all US prisoners die before leaving. The prison situation in America is absolutely a terrible one - doubly so for a nation that supposedly enshrines liberty and citizen rights - but let's not get carried away in thinking it is just as bad or worse than the worst recent documented historical events.

The original point in bringing up the comparison to number of prisoners in US prisons vs Stalin's GULAG's in the first place was to give some historical perspective to the seriousness of the situation. You can tell people we have over 2.7 million people in prison right now and they won't even bat an eyelash. Usually the most you get out of most people is some mumbled "Well I guess they deserve it" as a response. While you can certainly say that US prisons aren't as bad as the GULAG, yet, we're clearly headed towards something very similar and the time to do something about it is now.

[c1ue]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Chart is from the GULAG wiki.

Wiki, as usual in any even remotely controversial subject, is wrong.

Arpaio's jail was only a hop, skip, and a jump away from the conditions in the GULAG's and there is no reason to believe that prisons won't continue to slide in their treatment of prisoners.

I disagree. Being forced to perform hard physical labor, in an extremely harsh environment, with mass physical beatings and/or executions to complement the starvation, is in no way comparable to even the worst US prison.

I don't know about that. The prison system is essentially creating a permanent under class with less rights than normal citizens who are often exploited for cheap labor under work programs and no one seems to care. And this underclass just keeps getting bigger and bigger each year.

While it is growing, the US prison population is still nowhere even close to the percentage representation under Stalin, much less the qualitative (in a bad way) differences.

The original point in bringing up the comparison to number of prisoners in US prisons vs Stalin's GULAG's in the first place was to give some historical perspective to the seriousness of the situation.

I agree that having so many people in prison, especially for no apparent societal purpose, is serious.

While you can certainly say that US prisons aren't as bad as the GULAG, yet, we're clearly headed towards something very similar and the time to do something about it is now.

My view is that the slippery slope you are ascribing to with this statement is highly speculative. I'd also note that illegal and immoral imprisonment of Americans is nothing new - look at the internships of Japanese Americans in World War II.

I actually do share your view of the oppressive nature of the US justice system, but diverge in that I see the prison population as a symptom and not the cause. The cause is regulatory capture where the government no longer performs its public good functions, but rather is a tool for the few.

For prisons, between 'tough on crime' political posturing and for-profit, it is easy to see how we got to where we are now. On the other hand, with budgetary problems ever increasing, this trend seems to have topped out.

It seems a massive prison population is a luxury we can no longer afford.