Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

[davidstvz]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

I think there is no way to significantly stop piracy except through extremely tight and oppressive controls of the distribution medium (the Internet). If you shut down the torrent sites, people are just going to start getting music from other cheap sources. You can buy and rip old CDs for pennies on the dollars. You can rip your friends CDs (physical friends) or have Internet friends send you already ripped CDs that they have via private links.

If you institute very high penalties for illegal users and provide a legal alternative, then you might be on to something. However, in this situation, the legal market has to be more attractive than the illegal market. Very high penalties with a low chance of getting caught don't provide enough pressure. Look at drug usage. The nature of the drug has the biggest affect on usage rates. Lots of people use marijuana, hardly anyone uses heroin. Tobacco use has declined, despite being legal, because perception of danger has increased while perception of benefit has declined (social pressure combined with the fact that, at the end of the day, tobacco just doesn't get you high).

Even worse (for the recording industry), private creation and production of music gets less expensive every year as computers make production ever cheaper (whereas 15 years ago it was barely feasible). Independently produced music favors the Internet for distribution for obvious reasons. Even if it makes sense to find a marketing company for the music, that company is a way different beast than the big record companies of yore that produce and market. Even a heavily restricted Internet shouldn't help big producers compete with independent ones. They'd have to be able to shut down independent production and distribution channels for new music by force, or else compete. So SOPA and PIPA mostly try protect the portfolio of already created popular music, and that might give the industry more resources to compete with independent production and distribution of new music, but I think it's still a losing battle in the long run. Their last hold outs will be among non-tech savvy listeners (aging country music and pop music fans mostly). Niche markets are out of the question for big producers at this point.

EDIT: by the way, I should mention that independently produced music has a natural protection against piracy. The less well known the music is, the harder it is to find pirated copies of the music. Additionally, the listener feels closer to the artist and is less willing to "steal" the music. People will actually pay money for music that they can legally download for free!

[mesyn191]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

The way you stop the piracy, as with other crimes, is harsh punishment for people who are caught.

This is something that many people feel is true in America, in part thanks to lots of lobbying by the private prison system and by politicians to score cheap points with low info single issue voters by promoting such policies as "common sense" , but actually it is factually incorrect. And here is a 2nd paper on the subject if you like.

Prison is already a pretty harsh place today yet people still commit crimes far worse than piracy all the time, hell look at how the whole War on Drugs turned out. What a joke, paid for by the taxpayers to boot.

The trend is toward restricting freedoms and privileges of everyone because of a few bad apples. I think it could just be an excuse to grab more power and control as well.

Yea its all just about power and control. We're edging more and more closer to totalitarian state everyday.

So maybe a record company donates some money to a politician pushing SOPA? So what? I think most people today realize that cash is about the only way to get government motivated to stop white collar crimes. So corporations will always have their justice I suppose. Too bad government doesn't see fraud as a crime anymore unless there is a campaign donation to point it out.

You see the problem is that many people share that same "So what? " attitude that you do, only they do so towards other things. Things that you might care about, like for instance, fraud enforcement. Or jerrymandering. Or hell even defining what fraud exactly is in the first place, much like how CDS were defined as totally not being insurance despite being indiscernible from insurance, and so couldn't be regulated as such. These people are relatively few, but they tend to have lots of cash, so they get to influence the government far in excess of their 1 vote. So even if you really don't care about SOPA and what effects it may have the only reasonable view to take is to get the monied interests out of and away from government.

By that I mean bring back corporal punishment

Hahah do you want a return medieval style "justice" and all?

[flintlock]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Hahah do you want a return medieval style "justice" and all?

First of all, the current prison system creates criminals, it does not deter them.

Yes, in some cases corporal punishment. Sorry but the status quo is not working. Give the worst criminals a choice. A lash for every month off their sentence or something like that. Imagine the mental torture they'd put themselves through every day sitting in prison. Sick of sitting around? Theres always the lash! I'm half serious here.

Its easy to come out against every proposed solution. Harder to come up with a solution. Easier to just sit around an complain about crime. We want to ignore the base nature of man. As if somehow we are an animal that responds differently. The fact is, draconian measures often did keep people in line despite all liberal "studies" to the contrary( phony govt stats on crime have been hashed out here numerous times). English Kings kept generally kept law and order with a fraction of the "law enforcement" we have now. I bet you can guess how. And those people actually were starving! Not just upset because they couldn't afford an Iphone. All ears if you have a better solution, but when they are kicking in your front door and beating you senseless, its a bit late to change your mind! I've been a victim of these type criminals and let me tell you, it will change your attitude quickly when it happens to you. None of us are as safe as we think we are and I think we are all about to find out exactly how impotent our current system is when the SHTF. Its a razor thin veneer.

The real solution lies in creating an economic climate where all people willing to work can do so and do so at reasonable wages. But until that happens, we will just see more of the same.


Actually, by harsh punishment I was referring to harsh on white collar crime like identity theft, fraud. I got sidetracked with my corporal punishment idea. Those white collar types do not spend time in the horrible prisons you refer to. Those prisons are reserved for the lower class mostly. Serving time alone is not punishment enough either. Some actually don't seem to mind it when they figure out they fit in better IN prison than out. Make them work. Do something besides sit around watching TV. The book Papillon comes to mind. We need a Devil's Island.

If you have ever read any of my posts before, you'd know how much I am against the War on Drugs too.

The "So what" was sarcasm, hence the laughing figure. I was trying to convey the attitude many people have that fraud doesn't hurt anyone seriously.

Fraud and white collar crime are seen as victimless, are punished less severely, and so we are seeing more of it. In many cases, crime does pay and they have figured that out.

[flintlock]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Is it really mostly 12 year old kids doing this kind of thing? Or is it organized crime?

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Alternative methods would probably work well for petty crime and possessing drugs for personal use. When you look at our spending for prisons it's clear we really don't have enough tax money any more to keep the vast numbers of these people locked like we have been doing.

Violent criminals, on the other hand, still need to have their youth consumed in prison, getting released only when they are old and tired.

And a big +1 for the idea of throwing some white collar criminal banksters in the clink for a while to discourage the others, that's a highly trainable population.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Where SOPA fits with other attempts at censorship...

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/24/the_...n_a_wider_war/

[mesyn191]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

First of all, the current prison system creates criminals, it does not deter them.

OK if you know that and know why then why are you for harsher punishment?

Sorry but the status quo is not working.

Sure I know that, but the current prison system is more and more about punishment and humiliation with less and less effort given towards rehabilitation every year. Treating prisoners worse won't make them act better or become reformed. You treat people like animals they'll act like animals.

The fact is, draconian measures often did keep people in line despite all liberal "studies" to the contrary( phony govt stats on crime have been hashed out here numerous times).

Did you even try glancing at those papers I linked? There is nothing liberal about them either BTW. Argue with the data if you want people to take you seriously.

English Kings kept generally kept law and order with a fraction of the "law enforcement" we have now.

I'd like to see some stats backing that up since AFAIK crime was common back then too, but if that is true their rule was brutal and generally pretty awful, why would you want to regress to that level of government? You think things were better in general for people back then or something? Simpler perhaps, but certainly not better.

All ears if you have a better solution

Focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. You can punish the hell out of someone but when they get of prison if they've got no other options they're going back to the same life they did before, because after all what option do they have left? You have to give people options or they just stop giving a fuck.

The real solution lies in creating an economic climate where all people willing to work can do so and do so at reasonable wages.

Well no actually. That will help but it won't really solve the problem. After all, you said it yourself, our prison system is just creating criminals. And the prison system has just gotten worse since at least the 1970's while we've had several economic booms in the mean time. Did you know we have more people in prison now then Stalin did in his gulags at any one time? You need to reform the prison system, the economic system, and the government to solve our society's dilemmas. They're all intertwined.

Actually, by harsh punishment I was referring to harsh on white collar crime like identity theft, fraud. I got sidetracked with my corporal punishment idea. Those white collar types do not spend time in the horrible prisons you refer to.

I too would like to see the sentence for fraud made much more severe, being only human I too feel the need for revenge, but I don't think that would deter white collar criminals while they've got regulatory capture still in full effect. Horrible punishments won't mean much to these people as long as they believe they're not likely to get caught, or if caught can still squeak out of a conviction since they can often buy the best lawyers to obfuscate complex financial matters to an ignorant jury. I would be willing to accept better enforcement for the rules and I believe that alone would do more to deter white collar criminals then harsher punishment. Of course you won't ever see that better enforcement while the regulators are captured...

Make them work. Do something besides sit around watching TV.

You realize they banned chain gangs for many years because not only were prisoners turned into defacto slaves by the state but often officials would create new rules to lock people up for and get a bigger work force right? They would "sell" this labor force to private companies who could do near whatever they wanted to these people, because they were criminals, and would often use them as scabs to undercut local labor wages. This is the darker side of the Jim Crow laws that today few are aware of. Once you know the history behind the chain gangs and prison labor I don't see how you can't be disgusted with the idea.

If you have ever read any of my posts before, you'd know how much I am against the War on Drugs too.

The "So what" was sarcasm, hence the laughing figure. I was trying to convey the attitude many people have that fraud doesn't hurt anyone seriously.

OK my bad.

[c1ue]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Did you know we have more people in prison now then Stalin did in his gulags at any one time?

I will only point out that the population of the US today is twice what it was in Stalin's time. He's still #1...

I'd also note that Stalin was repressing people, but not actually primarily for what most people think.

Russia after WW I had big chunks of its western and eastern territories torn away for a significant period time - either through independence or neglect during the Civil War. Many of the minorities at that time felt they had an opportunity to become independent; Stalin's gulags were his way of reversing that sentiment and preserving Russia's borders.

The US did the same thing in the Civil War, only they did it via a shooting conflict followed by an occupation.

[Prazak]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Stalin's gulags were his way of reversing that sentiment and preserving Russia's borders.

And not his only way, or even his most effective way, as I'm certain you know (e.g., internal deportations, capricious drawing of administrative boundaries).

[c1ue]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

And not his only way, or even his most effective way, as I'm certain you know (e.g., internal deportations, capricious drawing of administrative boundaries).

Quite true.

And again, Stalin conducted atrocious acts.

To depict his reasons for doing so as being solely due to his 'badness', however, is a mistake.

[Prazak]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Quite true.

And again, Stalin conducted atrocious acts.

To depict his reasons for doing so as being solely due to his 'badness', however, is a mistake.

Agreed, the man acted with purpose. Shipping the Tatars off to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan, for example, served to make an example of collaborators and to ethnically cleanse the geostrategically important Crimean peninsula. Hard to say whether he also enjoyed the badness of it all on some level, but I'm guessing he did. But even if he did, you're right that it wasn't done solely, or even primarily, for the sake of badness.

Couldn't that be said of most leaders who inflict mass suffering on people? To take an extreme example, even Hitler's Final Solution, as uniquely reprehensible as it was, followed a certain twisted purpose.

[reggie]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Let SOPA & PIPA pass. Perhaps this will kill Weiner's Cybernetic beast being built up around us, for people might just stop using it in protest.




http://www.amazon.com/Impact-Science.../dp/041510906X

[c1ue]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Couldn't that be said of most leaders who inflict mass suffering on people? To take an extreme example, even Hitler's Final Solution, as uniquely reprehensible as it was, followed a certain twisted purpose.

Perhaps, but I do draw a distinction between a Hitler's demonization of Jews to solidify his own power vs. Stalin's suppression of minorities in order to preserve Russian strategic interests.

The former is for no purpose other than self aggrandisement, the latter is a state issue.

What Hitler did is no different than what the Poles, Ukrainians, Spanish, Russians, and so on and so forth did: point out a culturally separate group to deflect blame onto. Stalin did no such thing - the specific members of minorities he persecuted were the ones deemed troublesome, but in general there was no public demonization of Balts, Caucasians, Asiatics, and so forth. No doubt because Stalin himself is Georgian, not Russian, and a number of his upper level cabinet ministers were Jews.

[mesyn191]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

I will only point out that the population of the US today is twice what it was in Stalin's time. He's still #1...

Prison population growth has far outstripped US population growth though so you can't just blame it on that.

Also he won't be #1 for much longer at this rate. Sure, a US prison isn't as bad as Stalin's gulags were either, not yet anyways. But we're getting there, slowly but surely. You've seen the crap Sheriff Arpaio has been able to get away with and the private prisons aren't much better than that right now either.

I'd also note that Stalin was repressing people, but not actually primarily for what most people think.

Given that it is mostly poor and black people in prison it could be argued that US prisons serve to repress blacks and the poor.

Stalin's gulags were his way of reversing that sentiment and preserving Russia's borders.

Perhaps but they were a horrible and stupid one.

The US did the same thing in the Civil War, only they did it via a shooting conflict followed by an occupation.

Also horrible and stupid.

[davidstvz]

Re: Any comments on SOPA and Wikipedia's blackout?

Yeah, the U.S. has the number one prison population nominally and percentage last I checked. 1% of us are in the system (I can't recall of it is behind bars, or behind bars + on prohibition). I'd like to blame only the war on drugs, but FIRE policies have been pretty hard on the poor eh? It probably has motivated them to commit more desperation and frustration crime completely aside from drug crime.