New steve keen interview from today

[SamAdams]

Re: New steve keen interview from today

Somewhere I heard an anecdote that Stalin's underlings used to ask him why the USSR couldn't employ more of a peaceful style of socialism like Sweden to which he replied "yes but where would we get the Swedes?".

[astonas]

Re: New steve keen interview from today

IMO, it doesn't surprise me at all that Sweden was able to do what it did.

Much like South Korea, Sweden is a largely homogeneous and relatively economically egalitarian nation.

The United States, on the other hand, while it has been egalitarian in economic opportunity compared to the ROW in the past, it is definitely no such thing now. And it has never been homogeneous.

I'm certainly not in disagreement with this. But I do think that Germany might drag Europe along the path it saw Sweden take. And Europe is even less homogeneous than the U.S. Your statement implies that it would be quite dramatic indeed, and I don't necessarily disagree with that either. But I am curious about how you might expect the result of such an effort to unfold, should it be attempted?

[c1ue]

Re: New steve keen interview from today

I'm certainly not in disagreement with this. But I do think that Germany might drag Europe along the path it saw Sweden take. And Germany is even less homogeneous than the U.S. Your statement implies that it would be quite dramatic indeed, and I don't necessarily disagree with that either. But I am curious about how you might expect the result of such an effort to unfold, should it be attempted?

Germany is less homogeneous than the United States? Really?

So you're telling me that 12.5% of Germany is of African origin, with another 10% to 15% of recent Hispanic immigration (2 generation or less), plus all the other types of immigrants (white, asian).

Sure, there are Poles, and Turks, and so forth, but just because a person is an American citizen does not make America homogeneous. I also find it very hard to see how a New Englander is more similar to a Mississippian than a Hamburger vs. a Bavarian.

As for Germany and the rest of the EU, it isn't that Germany seeks to make the rest of the EU German. That implies a capability of cultural propagation which frankly probably doesn't exist.

Nor is Germany seeking to 'fix European banks'; Germany has its own banksters just like France, the UK, and the US have (and pretty much every other nation).

However, as the 1% in the United States has shown, you can very much achieve fiscal control without cultural assimilation or control.

[gwynedd1]

Re: New steve keen interview from today

If debt is forgiven and we start-over again, as Keen's suggests we do, then there isn't any value in working for money, is there? In other words, one can borrow to infinity, and they get to keep what they encumbered and squat upon. They can steal from the lender, literally steal from the saver.

In the 1980s when I had my coin shop in Edmonton, I wrote a letter to the editor of the Canadian Coin News, and in that letter (which was published) I wrote the comment: "If one can borrow forever and heap debt upon debt and then never have to pay any of it back, the money involved in this debt pyramid scheme is worthless. The game is over because the confidence in the currency evaporates.... Why work? Why save?"

After the letter was published, I was invited onto CFRN radio in Edmonton, and we went over the concept on the air of what
inflation, debt bubbles, pyramid schemes, speculations and paper money are all about. Needless to say, the lights lit-up on the show producer's switchboard.

One of the remarks that I made on the talk show was that in a tiny little coin shop of barely 70 square-feet, mostly unknown in the community and a laugh and an embarrassment for those who did know of it, I paid more taxes last year to the Government of Canada than Dome Petroleum Corporation, and Dome Petroleum had taken bail-outs from the government, too..... After some hysterical laughter, the fur began to fly on the air-waves..... ( The well known and esteemed Dome Petroleum Corp. in Alberta had just gone bankrupt. )

Needless to say, my business at the coin shop tripled immediately after the show. But the point was made: gold and coin collecting are no joke.

In my shop I had a heap of worthless world currencies. That Saturday, immediately after the talk-show, fathers appeared with their children to play in the heap of worthless paper money from around the world. The kids were amazed that money could be worthless.

Anyway, Steve Keen above made one important remark: he said that the leading university economists of our time do not understand economics at all. They do not understand what is happening now in the world..... Why should anyone listen to these so-called "economists" any longer? These university academics and their mis-understandings of economics caused this worldwide depression now.

Who is putting a gun to the lender's head to loan to people who cannot pay? Consumer loans inherently are often never paid. The lender is responsible. Who holds the public trust with a bank charter? And I like Steve Keen.

[astonas]

Re: New steve keen interview from today

Germany is less homogeneous than the United States? Really?

So you're telling me that 12.5% of Germany is of African origin, with another 10% to 15% of recent Hispanic immigration (2 generation or less), plus all the other types of immigrants (white, asian).

Sure, there are Poles, and Turks, and so forth, but just because a person is an American citizen does not make America homogeneous. I also find it very hard to see how a New Englander is more similar to a Mississippian than a Hamburger vs. a Bavarian.

Wow, was that ever a mistake! I mistyped. (Too tired to post straight, apparently.) I meant EUROPE is less homogeneous than the United States.

Each nation itself is of course more homogeneous, Italian, Turkish, and Polish guest workers notwithstanding. In fact, the raging immigration debate there right now involves the degree of assimilation they can foist on these immigrant groups.

As for Germany and the rest of the EU, it isn't that Germany seeks to make the rest of the EU German. That implies a capability of cultural propagation which frankly probably doesn't exist.

I'm less certain about that. Germany isn't seeking a complete conversion, only in one cultural subset (monetary philosophy) and it does intend to do so in the context of providing new institutions worthy of the trust that has so far been withheld from the current institutions.

That being said, I certainly agree with you that they are underestimating the significance of the conversion. I see such philosophies in general unfolding over millennia, rather than years. There have been times of exceptionally fast change, such as the enlightenment, or the reformation, though. If this drama continues, we may get to see whether Germany can follow the "intellectual golden age" model. If not, we might have to witness a repeat of the 30-year war, but sped up with modern technology. [/QUOTE]

Nor is Germany seeking to 'fix European banks'; Germany has its own banksters just like France, the UK, and the US have (and pretty much every other nation).

I would say this depends on the definition of "fix". If you mean bail out, then I absolutely agree. It couldn't do so if it wanted to. But if you mean heavily regulate, tax, or even nationalize, I imagine such a fix being far more possible than it is here.

German society overall is very different from the United States in its views of government intervention. One of the dominant threads of US politics (the government is just too big) is nearly completely absent there (though the FDP tries a little). While they did privatize their national rail system, many are now regretting that fact. And their national postal service permits one to perform all retail banking services at a national institution already. Public-private competition is just not seen as a scary thing there. They've seen it, and for the most part, they didn't mind it a bit.

However, as the 1% in the United States has shown, you can very much achieve fiscal control without cultural assimilation or control.

This is of course true in any country. However, here again I see a cultural difference. In the US, captains of industry are household names, and prominent figures in the press. They are seen as crucial to the evolution of the country. (J.P. Morgan providing a loan to the government, Rockefeller's Oil industry, Carnegie's Steel., Gates and Grove with Wintel.) They also form a significant part of the national character, in the form of being examples for the American Dream.

In Germany, merely being wealthy is more likely to earn you suspicion (though not hostility) than admiration. Respect there is reserved for intellectual or artistic giants, which hold a similar equivalence to politicians there that captains of industry do here. And professors there hold a similar level of respect that entrepreneurs might here.

So any effort to save a private industry, however crucial to the national interest, will be met with a coldly analytical sentiment akin to: "OK if we have to. But let's make sure we do it in a way that punishes the guilty, and best benefits the national interest at the same time." There is no ethos that what these guys were working towards was ever a fundamentally good thing, only at ever a practically necessary service.

Furthermore, the parliamentary governmental system fundamentally removes one problem associated with US politics: the "lesser of two evils" choice inherent in a two-party, winner-take-all system. There is always another party to vote for, at least in regard to the one issue you care most about.

So while the German political system is necessarily going to be exposed to the same forces that led to bankster control, I tend to believe they are better situated to resist it. And after all, isn't that exactly what they've been doing for three years?

[c1ue]

Re: New steve keen interview from today

I'm less certain about that. Germany isn't seeking a complete conversion, only in one cultural subset (monetary philosophy) and it does intend to do so in the context of providing new institutions worthy of the trust that has so far been withheld from the current institutions.

I guess it is a matter of perception.

You believe that Germany seeks to change monetary philosophy.

I believe Germany seeks legal controls to prevent undesired behavior.

The results can be the same in some instances, but both spirit and behavior under these different agendas can be dramatically different.

However, here again I see a cultural difference. In the US, captains of industry are household names, and prominent figures in the press. They are seen as crucial to the evolution of the country. (J.P. Morgan providing a loan to the government, Rockefeller's Oil industry, Carnegie's Steel., Gates and Grove with Wintel.) They also form a significant part of the national character, in the form of being examples for the American Dream.

In Germany, merely being wealthy is more likely to earn you suspicion (though not hostility) than admiration. Respect there is reserved for intellectual or artistic giants, which hold a similar equivalence to politicians there that captains of industry do here. And professors there hold a similar level of respect that entrepreneurs might here.

I agree, Germany has many cultural differences than the US. For one thing, labor is actually part of the corporation - the large German conglomerates have a labor representative on the board whereas the American conglomerates relegate the role of labor to the VP of HR level.

However, I don't agree at all that Germany has a similar bankster presence as the US. There is no German equivalent of the House Financial Services committee, for example.

And while German banks do contribute to politicians, I do not believe they have anywhere near the role that US bankster counterparts play.

There are other examples of differences: in the US, not a single head of a major, or even medium bank has had public excoriation whether legal or otherwise (note OWS doesn't single out specific banksters).

In Germany, on the other hand, the travails of Josef Ackermann are very public.

My view is that the German banks were part of the German export to the EU machine but not the controlling factor as banks in the US are. Thus while Germany as a nation seeks to fix the problem resulting from the German export corp + German bank vendor financing, in fact using it to reassert stronger control over the euro and EU, it is fundamentally a different dynamic than FIRE in the US manipulating the entire economy, government, and legal system via very poorly concealed strings.