Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

[jpetr48]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

You can believe what you want. I just object that you want to use my money and the blood and bone of the kid next door to act on your beliefs. I wish the Israeli's would form a French Foreign Legion type military unit that enlists foreigners. You could then encourage your own children to engage in battle in the religious lunatic asylum known as the Middle East. I'm sure the Good Lord will smile on their sacrifices. You could also write a check to the IDF. I'm sure they won't have any problem cashing it.
That being said, a protracted war with Iran would be an end stage development for the United States as we know it.

Thank you for your perspective. It is way off from the Judeo Christian values that i do believe in and quite frankly i find it incredulous that this mindset exists.
The purpose of my posting was not to incite personal animosity. We live in a nation found on values that cherish free will, liberty and separation of state and religion. What you are espousing i believe in is like the radical sects which flies planes into buildings for the sake of having virgins in heaven- a religion that takes away a woman's rights and imposes legalistic means of living. In short, no where in the Bible does it advocate individuals support beliefs that send children to war. If you have a position against our government going to war then vote but please dont misrepresent what i am saying.Oh by the way we had to fight for those voting rights you do have.

The purpose of my posting was to share more than a geopolitical and economic perspective and add a key part which is what is driving the animosity in the middle east. The origin of this conflict is also well documented in the book you take offense. Please reconsider before you make other personal attacks or references that derail this thread.

[astonas]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

We are one nation founded under God and there is no coincidence in many elected officials asking for God to bless America in their closing remarks.

The myth of the U.S. being founded based on religious ideals was first propagated in the 1950's, during the red scare, when politicians found it, as they find it now, to be beneficial to claim superiority on the grounds that the enemy were "godless". This was also the era when "in god we trust" was placed on our money, and the words "one nation, under god" were added to the pledge of allegiance. So using the latter phrase in reference to our founding is historically inaccurate.

In point of fact, the founding fathers were largely secular humanists, or at most deists (who believe in a god that has not intervened in the affairs of the universe since the moment of creation). The lonely exception was John Jay, who actually was as christian as some modern evangelicals pretend all founding fathers were.

Thomas Jefferson actually went so far as to create his own version of the Bible, by cutting out all the parts he thought were either historically innaccurate, or outright lies. Madison, who is responsible for the bulk of the constitutuion, was also quite outspoken in his criticism of religion.

This is not to say that your own religious ideals should not be respected. They should, just as any religious belief should. But claiming that they should hold sway over the United States' policies by virtue of their connection to its founding is based on a version of history that is demonstrably false, and overwhelmingly so.

[DToM67]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

I know Jim but i dont blame the others for saying what they do. It was a little over 11 years ago that I thought as they did. My first reaction when reading their comments was smile and second response I am sure you know well. If the forecast accuracy was not 100%, i would have never posted what i did.
We are one nation founded under God and there is no coincidence in many elected officials asking for God to bless America in their closing remarks.

In god we trust: god = guns, oil & drugs. (aka military industrial complex, big oil & big pharma). All tools of the TBTF 'class'.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

I know Jim but i dont blame the others for saying what they do. It was a little over 11 years ago that I thought as they did. My first reaction when reading their comments was smile and second response I am sure you know well. If the forecast accuracy was not 100%, i would have never posted what i did.
We are one nation founded under God and there is no coincidence in many elected officials asking for God to bless America in their closing remarks.

My reactions were the same as yours. I am 68 and I too believed what they do until I was 38. It has truly been a wonderful 30 years.

[unlucky]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

Thank you for your perspective. It is way off from the Judeo Christian values that i do believe in and quite frankly i find it incredulous that this mindset exists.

I think what BigBagel is trying to say is, that when you religious folks go to war with each other can you please leave us non-believers out? After all it's kind of unfair on us since we have no chance of going to paradise when we get nuked/shot/gassed. Also please keep the amount of radioactive detritus left behind afterwards to a minimum. Thanks!

[astonas]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

My reactions were the same as yours. I am 68 and I too believed what they do until I was 38. It has truly been a wonderful 30 years.

Interestingly enough, I am a former devout christian, who has realized that the beliefs I previously held were inconsistent with reality. I am extremely grateful that I did, and my life has been much improved as a result.

Perhaps the key is not whether you believe in a religion, but that you strive to live your life as well as you can? Converts, either to or from a religion, all share the trait of having been willing to examine their beliefs, and if found false, change them. Current anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that this open-mindedness is the element that leads to an improvement in life's circumstances.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

Interestingly enough, I am a former devout christian, who has realized that the beliefs I previously held were inconsistent with reality. I am extremely grateful that I did, and my life has been much improved as a result.

Perhaps the key is not whether you believe in a religion, but that you strive to live your life as well as you can? Converts, either to or from a religion, all share the trait of having been willing to examine their beliefs, and if found false, change them. Current anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that this open-mindedness is the element that leads to an improvement in life's circumstances.

I, of course, have found the exact opposite of your findings If you want to discuss this further please PM me. This thread is not really the right place. I hope you have peace in your life as I have.

[jpetr48]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

My reactions were the same as yours. I am 68 and I too believed what they do until I was 38. It has truly been a wonderful 30 years.

+1 - thank you for letting me know. I am 55 and was 43. Not only peace but I have learned how to handle money- no debt which has given freedom to choose who i want to work for and to give more to others than i ever could imagine giving!

[astonas]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

I, of course, have found the exact opposite of your findings If you want to discuss this further please PM me. This thread is not really the right place. I hope you have peace in your life as I have.

I have indeed, and am genuinely pleased that you have as well.

I agree that this is not an ideal context for a discussion of this topic. However, I do wish you well in this area, as in all others. I expect that I will continue to enjoy reading your thoughtful contributions here on iTulip, and hope to continue participating in discussions with you on any other subjects that may come up. I have often found your perspective to be an important one, and also one that may be under-represented here.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

I have indeed, and am genuinely pleased that you have as well.

I agree that this is not an ideal context for a discussion of this topic. However, I do wish you well in this area, as in all others. I expect that I will continue to enjoy reading your thoughtful contributions here on iTulip, and hope to continue participating in discussions with you on any other subjects that may come up. I have often found your perspective to be an important one, and also one that may be under-represented here.

I too enjoy your posts and look forward to future discussions. And I wish you well also.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

+1 - thank you for letting me know. I am 55 and was 43. Not only peace but I have learned how to handle money- no debt which has given freedom to choose who i want to work for and to give more to others than i ever could imagine giving!

exactly! I and most of my family have found the same as you have.

[charliebrown]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

Sorry but there is great evidence to support that many of the founding fathers were deeply religious.
Most were Christian in some form, although as you point out, there views of the nature of the Christian God were
diverse. Hardly any were atheists, some were anti-religious which is not the same thing. See below.

People may call me naive, but the lines in the declaration hold a special place in my heart. "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights ... To protect these right governments are created deriving their power from the consent of governed".

If there is no God, then there are no unalienable rights. Without God, our right to life and liberty are granted by the state, and the state can easily remove those rights.

Also the language of the 18th century had different meaning than we have today. When talking about religion, It was not strictly the belief or non belief in a supreme being. It was more about the nature of God denominationalism etc. I can't remember who outlined it, but it was stated that religion is a set of beliefs about the relationship and responsiblity between men and God, and the manner in which those responsibilities are met.

One can see this in the Ten commandments. The first 4 revolve around men and God. The later 6 between man and man.
Arguments about governments role in religion saw that the state had no business in the first 4. As the church of England could use the power of the government to enforce religious dogma.

Here are some quotes by some of the founders.
I rely upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of my sins; Samuel Adams;signer of Declaration
I commit my Soul into the hands of God ;Josiah Bartlett; signer of the declaration
I commit my Soul unto Almighty God; David Bearly; signer of the constitution
Rendering that to my Creator ... ;John Dickinson ;signer constitution
... I give my soul into the hands of the almighty God ... to receives the same again at the resurrection John Hart sign constition
through the merits of my blessed Savior, a remission of my sins George Mason; Bill of Rights
With an awful reverence to the Great Almighty; John Morton; signer of the declaration
in full belief of his providential goodness ... through Jesus Christ; Robert Paine ; signer of the declaration
To the eternal and only true God ... Charles Pickney; signer of the declaration.

I can go on with pages of these quotes.

Yes Thomas Jefferson was an anti-supernaturalist. He believed that Jesus Christ was a great teacher, but not devine.
Franklin called himself a Diest, but also rejected the clockmaker notion of God, that prayer was worthwhile and God did intervene in daily affairs.

I'm not really familiar with Madison's writings. He did argue against the colusion of organized religion in the state and federal government. I don't think these were athiestic, but he saw how things ran under the church of England.

This is a quote from wikepedia.
As a young man, Madison witnessed the persecution of Baptist preachers arrested for preaching without a license from the established Anglican Church. He worked with the preacher Elijah Craig on constitutional guarantees for religious liberty in Virginia.^[8] Working on such cases helped form his ideas about religious freedom. Madison served in the Virginia state legislature (1776–79) and became known as a protégé of Thomas Jefferson. He attained prominence in Virginia politics, helping to draft the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. It disestablished the Church of England and disclaimed any power of state compulsion in religious matters. He excluded Patrick Henry's plan to compel citizens to pay for a congregation of their own choice.

I am a believer, and I take no offense in those who challenge my faith. It makes me stronger.
I have no quarrel with you and welcome you on this site as long as you are civil. Which you are.
If you want to discuss this topic more you can PM me.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

I am a believer, and I take no offense in those who challenge my faith. It makes me stronger.
I have no quarrel with you and welcome you on this site as long as you are civil. Which you are.
If you want to discuss this topic more you can PM me.

+1

[c1ue]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

Sorry but there is great evidence to support that many of the founding fathers were deeply religious.

I'd have to agree with this, especially given that most of the colonists in America were there for religious reasons.

However, I'd have to say also that the Founders and ratifiers of the Constitution were explicitly in favor of separation of Church and State, having been persecuted by a state which was advocating a specific religion (Anglican church).

Thus I am more than a little bit put off by the notion that somehow Israel must be succored by the US government due to religious reasons.

Even beyond the arrogance of assuming the Bible, as interpreted by a specific flavor of Christianity, which in turn is a specific flavor of monotheism, which itself is a division of overall religion, should be the template for US national policy - is the notion that Israel the political state is in any way associated with the Israel of Jesus' birth.

For one thing, Israel of Jesus' era was a vassal state of Rome.

Are you then saying that America is the New Rome? If so, we should boot out all those idiotic Zionists and put in an American governor, and be done with it.

[jpetr48]

Re: Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979

I am a believer, and I take no offense in those who challenge my faith. It makes me stronger.
I have no quarrel with you and welcome you on this site as long as you are civil. Which you are.
If you want to discuss this topic more you can PM me.

+1

I am not so concerned for myself either but I will defend the truth which is what attracted me to this site and Eric.
The separation of church and state is a key principle. Second as Christians we are not to repay evil for evil rather live peaceably with all (Romans 12:17-18). It is government job to exert authority (Romans 13:4) on those who do not obey the law be it international or domestic. Disagree with foreign policy,then vote.