College has been (vastly) oversold

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

Data bares this out somewhat. It's probably very simply a matter of supply and demand. Don't major in clinical psychology any time soon...

Thanks for the data. It surprises me. I think of the following as the 3 main engineering degrees , shown here with their reported unemployment rates from your link

Chemical Eng 3.8%
Electrical Eng 5.0%
Mechanical Eng 5.8%

Among the careers reported under 2% unemployment are agricultural economics, astronomy and astrophysics, and naval architecture and marine engineering.

[dcarrigg]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

Thanks for the data. It surprises me. I think of the following as the 3 main engineering degrees , shown here with their reported unemployment rates from your link

Chemical Eng 3.8%
Electrical Eng 5.0%
Mechanical Eng 5.8%

Among the careers reported under 2% unemployment are agricultural economics, astronomy and astrophysics, and naval architecture and marine engineering.

I remember about 5-10 years ago there was a short stint where electrical engineers were in short supply here, but there were plenty of mechanical engineers. As I recall, both Raytheon and Lockheed Martin started up and advertised special "retrain to hire" programs for mechanical engineers to fix the supply/demand imbalance.

I've seen nothing of that sort lately. I guess the increased unemployment among ee's is why.

[goodrich4bk]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

In addition to being hard, "hard" science degrees suffer many of the same problems as degrees in other fields. This article is a year old, and may have already been discussed here, I don't recall. But it begs the question - What's the point of starting young and putting in all the work necessary to succeed in a challenging STEM field if you wind up in the same unemployed boat as your liberal-arts peers?

Bingo. Five years ago I had the following conversation with my high school Freshman son. I suggested he take a computer science course and he asked my why I thought it would be worth learing a job presently performed by Indian and Chinese students for less than our minimum wage? I had no answer, except to tell him he was wise beyond his years. After several days of thinking/discussing, we concluded that the highest guaranteed ROI for him was technical school for BMW mechanic.

Unfortunately, he is no more a gear head than he is a computer geek. He is a lazy math student, otherwise known as a musician. He's now writing and performing his own songs while attending Santa Monica College. I am flying down for a couple of days this week to discuss where he is heading. He suddenly appears to be concerned about finding gainful employment, probably a result of seeing many of his slightly older peers returning home to their parents' house.

[Sutter Cane]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

I wonder if the disconnect is that we're graduating too many pure scientists seeking academic careers, and all the jobs are in engineering and applied science?

And I wonder how many of these jobs in engineering and applied science involve military applications, weapons systems, and the like? What if it's not that you want to go into "pure" science necessarily, but that you just don't want to apply your skills towards killing browns... err, I mean "national defense"?

[Sutter Cane]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

Thanks for the data. It surprises me. I think of the following as the 3 main engineering degrees , shown here with their reported unemployment rates from your link

Chemical Eng 3.8%
Electrical Eng 5.0%
Mechanical Eng 5.8%

Among the careers reported under 2% unemployment are agricultural economics, astronomy and astrophysics, and naval architecture and marine engineering.

Interesting, since as I recall (I grew up on a farm, and went to a Midwestern cow college) the joke for ag econ majors was that you majored in finding out that you couldn't make any money farming!

But that was when there still were family farms, and an ag econ major might yet go on to take over the family farm, or get a job at the extension office, farm bureau, or something like that. Now they are probably strictly trained for jobs at Monsanto, ConAgra, Tyson, and the like.

[ASH]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

And I wonder how many of these jobs in engineering and applied science involve military applications, weapons systems, and the like? What if it's not that you want to go into "pure" science necessarily, but that you just don't want to apply your skills towards killing browns... err, I mean "national defense"?

That's an excellent point. Defense and aerospace create an "outsource-proof" market for domestic technical labor, inflating demand.

[doom&gloom]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

Thanks for the data. It surprises me. I think of the following as the 3 main engineering degrees , shown here with their reported unemployment rates from your link

Chemical Eng 3.8%
Electrical Eng 5.0%
Mechanical Eng 5.8%

Among the careers reported under 2% unemployment are agricultural economics, astronomy and astrophysics, and naval architecture and marine engineering.

Interesting, since as I recall (I grew up on a farm, and went to a Midwestern cow college) the joke for ag econ majors was that you majored in finding out that you couldn't make any money farming!

But that was when there still were family farms, and an ag econ major might yet go on to take over the family farm, or get a job at the extension office, farm bureau, or something like that. Now they are probably strictly trained for jobs at Monsanto, ConAgra, Tyson, and the like.

I have one heading off to college in 1.5 years, and another in 3.5 years. they both know I will not pay for degrees in worthlessness. cultural anthropolgy is out, as is religious studies, french majors, or anything of the like. #1 right now is considering (at my suggestion) Petroleum Engineering or Mining Engineering. We'll worry about #2 in a few years. He might be my ag major.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

.... He is a lazy math student, otherwise known as a musician...

lol!


Until I saw the reference to Santa Monica, I thought you might be one of my son's teachers describing him.

[jpatter666]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

I have one heading off to college in 1.5 years, and another in 3.5 years. they both know I will not pay for degrees in worthlessness. cultural anthropolgy is out, as is religious studies, french majors, or anything of the like. #1 right now is considering (at my suggestion) Petroleum Engineering or Mining Engineering. We'll worry about #2 in a few years. He might be my ag major.

You know -- it depends. My younger brother wanted to write and got a double major in English and Philosophy. My parents and I thought him doomed -- but even we had to admit, he was *good* at it. We just figured he'd be perpetually near-starving.

He then went to New York and slogged through more unpaid internships than I want to remember. We helped him some, but mostly he made his own way.

Eventually he became a major writer for the WSJ (!), gets requests to present to hedge funds and is just finishing his second book.

So yeah, degrees in "worthlessness" might be worthless if that truly isn't your passion -- but if it is, and you want it bad enough to sacrifice for it, you can make it work.

[doom&gloom]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

You know -- it depends. My younger brother wanted to write and got a double major in English and Philosophy. My parents and I thought him doomed -- but even we had to admit, he was *good* at it. We just figured he'd be perpetually near-starving.

He then went to New York and slogged through more unpaid internships than I want to remember. We helped him some, but mostly he made his own way.

Eventually he became a major writer for the WSJ (!), gets requests to present to hedge funds and is just finishing his second book.

So yeah, degrees in "worthlessness" might be worthless if that truly isn't your passion -- but if it is, and you want it bad enough to sacrifice for it, you can make it work.

ah, but your bro' WANTED to write. it was his passion. to many choose a subject because they just need to choose something, and english looks easier than chem engineering. I think you get the picture...

[jpatter666]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

ah, but your bro' WANTED to write. it was his passion. to many choose a subject because they just need to choose something, and english looks easier than chem engineering. I think you get the picture...

Certainly -- that's the point I was making (I thought....).

Oh well, been a very long day.....

[astonas]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

ah, but your bro' WANTED to write. it was his passion. to many choose a subject because they just need to choose something, and english looks easier than chem engineering. I think you get the picture...

I actually think that this is the key to the whole question. If you are following a REAL passion, it means being willing to make sacrifices for it, and work at it like a demon. That has a lot more to do with career success, and hence financial reward, than something like natural talent. And just about anything can be a "good" major if it's a good enough fit, since there will always be room for the top few in any profession. Admittedly with very different odds, but that's something to inform kids about, before they make their own choice.

So instead of trying to encourage my kid (many years from now) to choose one path or another, I hope to focus on one question: "Would you still want to do this, even if it means that you will be guaranteed to be poor because of that choice?" If yes, then go for it. You might not wind up as poor (or unhappy) as the engineer who chronically hates his job, can't summon a good attitude, and gets passed up for every promotion.

What's most dangerous is the kid who genuinely doesn't know what they want to do. That happens an awful lot. I think that one of the challenges of modern parenting is that so little of what we actually do at work is visible to kids, so they really don't get much exposure to what various professions spend their time doing. Not the illusion, or a few paragraphs of description, but the reality. It's not like they see us working on the farm every day anymore, or can hang out at the town blacksmith's forge, or the like. One computer screen looks pretty much like another. It's going to take a lot of effort, over many years, to provide the information to make a real, informed, choice.

FWIW, I also have a hunch that one of the many reasons that we are in this global financial mess is because a lot of people chose to be FIRE participants -- not because they liked what the job was about (effectively managing and balancing risks, finding a great home for people, etc.) but because they liked the money. That sort of thinking encourages one to game the system, look for shortcuts, and be motivated only by bonuses. A very general form of moral hazard is to only do things for the money.

[doom&gloom]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

I actually think that this is the key to the whole question. If you are following a REAL passion, it means being willing to make sacrifices for it, and work at it like a demon. That has a lot more to do with career success, and hence financial reward, than something like natural talent. And just about anything can be a "good" major if it's a good enough fit, since there will always be room for the top few in any profession. Admittedly with very different odds, but that's something to inform kids about, before they make their own choice.

So instead of trying to encourage my kid (many years from now) to choose one path or another, I hope to focus on one question: "Would you still want to do this, even if it means that you will be guaranteed to be poor because of that choice?" If yes, then go for it. You might not wind up as poor (or unhappy) as the engineer who chronically hates his job, can't summon a good attitude, and gets passed up for every promotion.

What's most dangerous is the kid who genuinely doesn't know what they want to do. That happens an awful lot. I think that one of the challenges of modern parenting is that so little of what we actually do at work is visible to kids, so they really don't get much exposure to what various professions spend their time doing. Not the illusion, or a few paragraphs of description, but the reality. It's not like they see us working on the farm every day anymore, or can hang out at the town blacksmith's forge, or the like. One computer screen looks pretty much like another. It's going to take a lot of effort, over many years, to provide the information to make a real, informed, choice.

FWIW, I also have a hunch that one of the many reasons that we are in this global financial mess is because a lot of people chose to be FIRE participants -- not because they liked what the job was about (effectively managing and balancing risks, finding a great home for people, etc.) but because they liked the money. That sort of thinking encourages one to game the system, look for shortcuts, and be motivated only by bonuses. A very general form of moral hazard is to only do things for the money.

That was me. Started in engineering, could not handle the math (my oldest definitely can handle it all), and switched to econ so I could take business classes and other classes I liked. Got out in 82, no jobs, got a decent one in 83 working for a guy who needed mood enhancers at times, learned the trade, and went on my way to recreate what I learned. dot com was very good to me in that business was great. Unfortunately, I do not think there is another such bubble coming our way to ride anytime soon.

Thus, we end up with a need to ensure that our kids either have a genuine passion for what they do, or at least the skills and talent to do what they learn and hopefully a dsire to like it in the end. In the case of a Petroleum Engineer, once you grind thru college, a lot of your time is spent travelling, on rigs, and reviewing data. this actually appeals a lot to #1, so if he makes it thru the program, the end reward will be exactly what he would like to do. As for #2? Still too early.

BTW, I think EVERY kid in college needs to take Accounting 101 and Business & Tech. Writing 101. Anyone who every has their own business will clearly need the skills in those clases more than anything else.

[dcarrigg]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

That's an excellent point. Defense and aerospace create an "outsource-proof" market for domestic technical labor, inflating demand.

There's the biggest jobs program in America. Stimulus eat your heart out. We've got stuff that's classified.

[lektrode]

Re: College has been (vastly) oversold

I remember about 5-10 years ago there was a short stint where electrical engineers were in short supply here, but there were plenty of mechanical engineers. As I recall, both Raytheon and Lockheed Martin started up and advertised special "retrain to hire" programs for mechanical engineers to fix the supply/demand imbalance.

I've seen nothing of that sort lately. I guess the increased unemployment among ee's is why.

i had several pals (in the 60s-70s, in MA) whos fathers were engineers of various sorts and it seemed like one of them or the other was always either laid-off or looking for a job - seems like it was a boom or bust field, at that point in time anyway - but i guess that was before the BIG BOOM in telecom/wwweb - now it seems like its due to so much production (and design) being offshored? (tho likely not for raytheon, not in andover/waltham anyway, as they pert near all military stuff, eh?)