Soros, #OWS, and Reuters

[reggie]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

Reggie... Listen to yourself: "Can you talk at all about the relationship between OWS and Complexity Theory..."

For someone who purports to be well informed in the science of social systems and their control mechanisms or whatever shouldn't you be more convincing? And if you're not, surely the worst approach is to blame this apparent failing on the audience you are attempting to communicate with.

I've had many moments while reading something where I want to run out in the street and accost someone and say "have you read this? Well you need to because I think it changes everything." ... as much to test out my own take as much as anything... but I never do it, at least like that.

Why can't you, in your own words, try and express what it is about the works you are citing that resonated with you or solved some nagging problem. Pronouncements and berating us isn't working.

I am just seeing your post now, as I haven't been a regular visitor to the forum in the last couple months.

In short, OWS is a technique to shape society's perception of reality (ie. create neural structures in the human brain that highlight certain inputs while blocking out others), with the goal of creating ubiquity of perception across the public mind. This is important, because Complexity Theory deals with systems where the agents (ie people) in those systems share the properties inherent in a Complext Adaptive System (CAS). And in a CAS society, the agents (ie people) are more likely to adapt to their environment. So, as Lenin so aptly figured out, you control the environment and you control the people within that environment.

Does this make sense?

Now, with info, may I suggest reviewing Boyd's presentation on OODA loops, which are a technique used to out think others via decision cycle speed.

[*T*]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

Right so we have, roughly:

1 - society is a system
2 - systems control theory can be applied to society
3 - TPTB are applying this to society

(1) I agree with. (2) I think is true in principle, but it's early days. (3) -- you can view central banks as a feedback controller (the Taylor rule as a proportional feedback) -- but generally applied, the application to society is so in its infancy as to be fairly useless. Also, society is adaptive. Control of adaptive systems is not well understood.

With reference to Boyd, I would say it is the internet and anarchic distributed decision-making (eg Anonymous) that is operating above the bandwidth of the formal power structures. I think you have this backwards. It is disrupting the formal power structures' ability to react (eg arab spring).

@oddlots: the Boyd talk is worth watching (now it's been fixed), whether or not reggie is talking sense.

[reggie]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

With reference to Boyd, I would say it is the internet and anarchic distributed decision-making (eg Anonymous) that is operating above the bandwidth of the formal power structures. I think you have this backwards. It is disrupting the formal power structures' ability to react (eg arab spring)..

Decision making on the Internet is anything but anarchic. Current tech has created its own new power structure, with the same people running it. So yes, the old formal power structures are being disrupted, but by who is the question. Just ask yourself who architected this current system that we're operating in, was it those anarchic forces that your refer to? Of course not. So, why would existing power architect a system that they could not control... that's not logical. The details are in the writtings of the Cyberneticians, from the early to mid 1900's, and in understanding the money flows for the foundational research into current tech.

As far as OWS, they are an excellent example of an OODA Loop in society, injecting the high-net-worth vs rest-of-us narrative (dialectic), with the goal of course to squash those that still have wealth, as the elite have already destroyed Americas the middle class. We now see evidence of that OODA Loop in the POTUS SOTU address, seeking to open the door to economic equality. A societal OODA Loop of this kind simply would not be as effective if we didn't already exist in a horizontally fused society, which is key to a successful CAS model.

[oddlots]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

@oddlots: the Boyd talk is worth watching (now it's been fixed), whether or not reggie is talking sense.

Thanks.

[reggie]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

Right so we have, roughly:

1 - society is a system
2 - systems control theory can be applied to society
3 - TPTB are applying this to society

(1) I agree with. (2) I think is true in principle, but it's early days. (3) -- you can view central banks as a feedback controller (the Taylor rule as a proportional feedback) -- but generally applied, the application to society is so in its infancy as to be fairly useless. Also, society is adaptive. Control of adaptive systems is not well understood.

What possibly could make u conclude this?

Thanks.

You're welcome!

By the way, I've just posted, in the video subform, a GoogleTalk by Steve Blank regarding the "Secret History of Silicon Vaelly". It is relevant i tnat Blank starts to reveal some of the players and money sources behind commercial tech.

[*T*]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

What possibly could make u conclude this?

Because my career is research in control theory and its applications. I know of not one documented successful application.

[Shakespear]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters

A rather interesting article that relates to OWS

How Swedes and Norwegians Broke the Power of the ‘1 Percent’

by George Lakey

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/01/26-3

[astonas]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

Because my career is research in control theory and its applications. I know of not one documented successful application.

(Just so this doesn't turn into a comparison of credentials.)

Isn't it also fair to say that control theory relies heavily on linearity (meaning orthogonality) of inputs and outputs, neither of which are fairly attributable to human responses? At least one non-controllable eigenvalue means you don't have a controlled system. And we can't even pretend to have observable, much less controllable, states.

So it's not just that a case doesn't exist. It's that the preponderance of evidence suggests that no such case could exist.

[*T*]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

(Just so this doesn't turn into a comparison of credentials.)

Yes, I hope I didn't come across as trying to start a pissing contest. I apologise to reggie / whoever if I did. I certainly don't accept argument by authority and neither should anyone else. I just meant that if such an application was common, I would have heard about it.

Isn't it also fair to say that control theory relies heavily on linearity (meaning orthogonality) of inputs and outputs, neither of which are fairly attributable to human responses?

linearity or something close to it is usually assumed, in some form. But linear needn't mean simple.

I have one colleague who does work on control engineering related topics in the social sciences / public health. His view is they are in the dark ages and dont even have the concepts. They (incl. economics) don't even have dynamics in their models. The concept of validating models, for example, is alien.

At least one non-controllable eigenvalue means you don't have a controlled system. And we can't even pretend to have observable, much less controllable, states.

So it's not just that a case doesn't exist. It's that the preponderance of evidence suggests that no such case could exist.

You could make that argument. Or something like it.

[reggie]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

(Just so this doesn't turn into a comparison of credentials.)

Isn't it also fair to say that control theory relies heavily on linearity (meaning orthogonality) of inputs and outputs, neither of which are fairly attributable to human responses? At least one non-controllable eigenvalue means you don't have a controlled system.

Agreed

And we can't even pretend to have observable, much less controllable, states.

So it's not just that a case doesn't exist. It's that the preponderance of evidence suggests that no such case could exist.

May I suggest that you're not looking at all the evidence?

[reggie]

Re: Soros, #OWS, and Reuters - Dress rehearsal for OWS was in 2009 - Michael Moore

Because my career is research in control theory and its applications. I know of not one documented successful application.

Familiar with the work of U of M Professor Robert Axelrod?
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~axe/

For starters, look at his work on "Framing Theory" and Social CAS Modelling with the Sante Fe Institute, DOD, AAAS and others.