iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

[BK]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

Interestingly, your comment about people that have made a fortune in Home Equity because they purchased their home prior to 1996. A large percentage of the Parents who have been forking over $25,000 - $50,000 for University Degrees for the last 10 years fall into this category.

What happens to a University system when families who purchased homes after 1999 - have children entering College. The Monthly Cost for Housing for Many of these families is at least double the families who purchased homes prior to 1996. This generation of potential University student families are significantly less wealthy because of the timing of their Real Estate purchase. Something as got to give??

[wayiwalk]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

I'm in that group. As an above average (but still just getting by) earner, I'm getting my wife accustomed to the truth that she will need to go back to work in order to pay for the kids' college education.

My biggest concern is that in a few more years, state schools will no longer be a bargain either. Dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't.

[snakela]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

Personally, I find the Tea Party(assimilated like the Borg into a franchise of the GOP) and the OWS movement both encouraging and incredibly frustrating.


I also find the anger and resentment directed at OWS and it's supporters by those who are employed and weathering this financial storm well(or well enough for now) disconcerting.

Same goes for the MANY OWS supporters who are VERY quick to arrogantly disparage the Tea Party oblivious to the fact that the OWS movement is at equal or even greater risk of being hijacked much like the Tea Party.

I think that is by design. Both "movements" began organically. The TP from Rick Santelli's rant and OWS from Anonymous (the internet hivemind) about financial oligarchy but seem to have been co-opted quite quickly into the same old show about social issues. If there's a legitamate protest, no better way to discredit it than get the loonies to show up for a drum circle while demanding free stuff. I wonder if the socialist (real ones, not hyperbole) understand their role as spoiler for the change they want in this scenario.

[snakela]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

I'm in that group. As an above average (but still just getting by) earner, I'm getting my wife accustomed to the truth that she will need to go back to work in order to pay for the kids' college education.

My biggest concern is that in a few more years, state schools will no longer be a bargain either. Dammed if you do, and dammed if you don't.

Then tell them to F-off when they call for money. I've asked my alma mater why they need donations after raising tuition at 15% a year and growing enrolement. I was promised I'd get a balance sheet and income statement to see where their costs are growing. I never did.

My grad school has freshman call me to say they need my money for scholarships and such. I tell them that if I donate they'll keep raising costs and my kid will never get to go. its the same story there - rising tuition year after year but still call to shore up the ol' endowment (and that is a state school).

Its my oppinion now that higher education is the last holdout of the FIRE economy and a scam to load young people up with un-dischargeable debt.

[dcarrigg]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

I agree -- this is but one of the reasons we are IMO going to see fairly high (10% y/y) inflation over the next decade. Fixed pension payments are going to get decimated, because that's the only way out for many companies/governments.

I think that governments and companies are finding another way first - simply take them away. Just type "pension reform" into google news (or click that).

To me it is simple: ZIRP, bad state/corporate government, and crappy .gov accounting standards killed pensions. Pension funds were often started when interest rates were higher and required 8% growth to be solvent.

Some years they actually would make more than 8% and state politicians elected to use the money for other things or corporate boards would pay out higher executive packages (certainly not dividends for the most part).

Accounting standards require that bond holdings be valued at yield rate but that stock holdings can be valued at whatever is deemed reasonable. As such, as interest rates went down towards zero (hence ZIRP), pension funds necessarily shifted away from stable investments such as bonds and towards riskier asset class allocations that they could say would earn 11% per year to round out to the 8% annual capital gain targets they set to keep the fund solvent.

Of course, when this never materialized, the unfunded liability grew. The average pension fund only made about 3-4% annually over the last decade. That's a big hole.

Nobody discusses how ZIRP killed the pension system (public and private), but it did. And now the solution is simply to take them away and thrust all of the risk onto employees who will not have access to the same funds that a giant fund with active portfolio managers can have. Meaning that mutual funds win.

Long story short, this certainly feels deliberate. 3 more years of ZIRP and there will be no more pensions in the U.S. (Unless they're part of an executive compensation package. Jack Welch will still get $9M per year).

[Dave Stratman]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

Poll for how many itulipers are taking part in OWS protests.

I have taken part in Occupy Boston, to support it and to distribute this piece, which has been widely posted on the net here and in Italy, Germany, and a number of other countries:

Thinking aboutRevolution

By JohnSpritzler and Dave Stratman

"What do we mean by the Revolution? The war? That was no part of the revolution; it was only an effect and consequence of it. The revolution was in the minds of the people, and this was effected from 1760 – 1775, in the course of fifteen years, before a drop of blood was shed at Lexington.”

–John Adams, Letter to Thomas Jefferson,August 24, 1815

What follows is a brief synopsis of “Thinkingabout Revolution,” which can be found in its entirety at http://newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/Thinking.pdf

Once again the time has come for revolution in America.Instead of a British king we have a ruling class of bankers and billionaires who control the government and all the important institutions of society. The future holds misery for the many and privilege for the few.

The problems we confront are part of asystem in which money is power and most people don’t have any. The powerful men and women who run our world were not elected and cannot be unelected. They can only be removed from power by revolution.

The goal of democratic revolution is to break the power of the ruling elite and create a society run by and for the people: a true democracy. The principles underlying that society, we believe, should consist of these three: equality, mutual aid, and democracy.

By equality we do not mean “equal opportunity” to get ahead in an unequal society. We mean equality of condition.By mutual aid we mean a society based on sharing and cooperation rather than competition. By democracy we mean not this lying, fake democracy but a society in which the real decision-making power is in the hands of the people.

Real democracy will require a new organization of society. “Thinking about Revolution” proposes radical changes in how we think about ourselves and what we imagine human possibilities to be. It proposes a democratic structure based on confidence in the values and good sense of ordinary people.

Some elements of that structure include:

· All who contribute to society have free and equal access to its goods and services,which are shared according to need, not bought and sold. Money is not used. There are no rich and no poor.

· All the things that people use to produce goods, such as factories and mines and large tracts of land, belong to all the people. These things are a common treasure for all of society, not the property of a few.

· The goal of economic production is to provide the goods and services people need and want, not to make profits for capitalists.

· All political power is vested in local community and workplace assemblies. Congress, state legislatures, city and town councils, and all other instrumentsof the former capitalist state are disbanded.

· The Pentagon, the military, the police, and other instruments of capitalist power are disbanded. Communities organize to meet local needs for safetyand protection.

Some people believe a better world is not possible because inequality and greed are “human nature.” We reject this view. The logic of capitalism is dog-eat-dog competition, yet most people in their everyday lives struggle to create loving and supportive relationships with their loved ones and friends and co-workers,in the face of a brutal culture. Most people, in other words, are engaged in a struggle against capitalist values. When people have more confidencein themselves and other people, they shape more of the world with their values.They build networks and struggles and movements. With enough confidence, they make revolutions. The most personal acts of kindness and the most publicand collective acts of revolution are on continuum of struggle to humanize theworld.

Others believe the history of Communismshows that revolutions make things worse. We argue that the undemocratic fate of Communist revolutions lay in Marx’s view of the world. Marx accepted the capitalist view, that economic development is the basis of human development, and the capitalist view of human nature, that individuals seek only their own self-interest. Marxism thus presented Lenin with a problem: “Who shall look to the needs of the whole society?” Lenin’s answer: the Communist Party, with dictatorial power.

Still others think that the great powerof the ruling elite makes revolution impossible. While capitalism has enormous tactical power, it is strategically very weak. The capitalist system holds no promise, not even the illusion of a promise, of a better world for most people.

We have been on the defensive for too long, trying to stop one more bad thing from happening—a very demoralizing situation. We need to go on the offensive.

How can we do that? Ther evolutionary strategy we propose is to confront capitalism’s right to exist and the possibility of an alternative society: to make the need and possibilityof revolution the issue of public and private discussion, the issue in every struggle, the issue wherever people come together to discuss their concerns. This is how we can take the offensive

John Adams wrote in 1815 that theAmerican Revolution was not the revolutionary war. The war was only “an effect and consequence of the Revolution in the minds of the people, from 1760-1775.” This is the Revolution that we are here attempting to achieve: a Revolution in the minds of a world of people, to transform their sense of the possibilitiesof human society and of their own power to fulfill them. From this Revolution in the minds of the people will come the transformation of society.

We intend “Thinking about Revolution” asa small contribution to a national and international discussion of how to defeat the forces that control our society and create a new world. The full document is posted at http://newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/Thinking.pdf

John Spritzler: spritzler@comcast.net . Dave Stratman: newdem@aol.com.

[metalman]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

All who contribute to society have free and equal access to its goods and services,which are shared according to need, not bought and sold.

"In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs!"
- Karl Marx, statement of the creed in the 'Critique of the Gotha Program'

ah, shit... here we go again...

[dcarrigg]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

But Santa, why do mommy and daddy have to move to the north pole? [/Joke]


(Please don't find it in bad taste. Marx just bears the resemblance.)

In all seriousness, look at the reddit feeds or the GA minutes from around the country (Most are posted online. Find your local site at occupytogether.com). They HAVE been specifically advocating for equality of opportunity and NOT the end of capitalism.

That being said, there are some among the protesters who feel differently.

Personally, the Communist Manifesto feels like kissing a woman named Agnes to me. Boring and old. (sorry to any Agneses out there). It's not hot and exciting any more. The new generation will not buy it. The sixties are over.

In a way, Dave Stratman understands this. Replace the dictatorship of the proletariate with Anon, and voila. Dave, if you're going down the rabbit hole of neo-communism, I'd advise you that there are already authors out there who see Just in Time and RFID tech in tandem with the internet enabling a real-time feedback mechanism for an efficient centrally planned economy. That stuff will blow your mind. Imagining a world like that blew my mind anyways. We need both a utopian and a George Orwell to chew on that for a while. It could be gloriously hopeful or terribly nightmarish. The possibilities abound.

But, I don't think that the thrust of this movement goes that direction. The OWS is about fairness, level playing fields, and jobs for youth. Most don't want to kill capitalism, but rather they want to even it out. It is a major reason why I see these protests as one of the signs of the "last chance" to straighten capitalism out before all hell breaks loose. FDR heeded the call, I think. I don't see anyone with the courage to do so now. The solution could come from either party. But neither has a champion yet. If history holds, an opportunist will arise and save the day. But history only rhymes...

So, to be less kurt than metalman, watch out, and be careful.

[Guest]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

Why aren't they occupying the white house, the capital building, the fed, the justice dept and SEC that doesn't prosecute anyone for the various crimes and frauds committed, and the supreme court that allows unconstitutional acts to be ignored over and over again? The Wall Street firms are simply playing by the crooked rules set up by the aforementioned parties.

We have nothing close to real capitalism. Yet it'll be blamed for the mess.

[Prazak]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

Why aren't they occupying the white house, the capital building, the fed, the justice dept and SEC that doesn't prosecute anyone for the various crimes and frauds committed, and the supreme court that allows unconstitutional acts to be ignored over and over again? The Wall Street firms are simply playing by the crooked rules set up by the aforementioned parties.

The Wall Street firms did not blunder into a set of crooked rules, they concocted them, financed and rewarded those who implemented them, and implemented them themselves by capturing the relevant regulatory agencies.

So do you blame the puppet or the puppet-master? Both, certainly -- but isn't it well past high time we stop focusing on the kabuki theater on Capitol Hill and on the campaign trails and shift the spotlight to the puppet-masters of the universe?

[Dave Stratman]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

But Santa, why do mommy and daddy have to move to the north pole? [/Joke]


(Please don't find it in bad taste. Marx just bears the resemblance.)

In all seriousness, look at the reddit feeds or the GA minutes from around the country (Most are posted online. Find your local site at occupytogether.com). They HAVE been specifically advocating for equality of opportunity and NOT the end of capitalism.

That being said, there are some among the protesters who feel differently.

Personally, the Communist Manifesto feels like kissing a woman named Agnes to me. Boring and old. (sorry to any Agneses out there). It's not hot and exciting any more. The new generation will not buy it. The sixties are over.

In a way, Dave Stratman understands this. Replace the dictatorship of the proletariate with Anon, and voila. Dave, if you're going down the rabbit hole of neo-communism, I'd advise you that there are already authors out there who see Just in Time and RFID tech in tandem with the internet enabling a real-time feedback mechanism for an efficient centrally planned economy. That stuff will blow your mind. Imagining a world like that blew my mind anyways. We need both a utopian and a George Orwell to chew on that for a while. It could be gloriously hopeful or terribly nightmarish. The possibilities abound.

But, I don't think that the thrust of this movement goes that direction. The OWS is about fairness, level playing fields, and jobs for youth. Most don't want to kill capitalism, but rather they want to even it out. It is a major reason why I see these protests as one of the signs of the "last chance" to straighten capitalism out before all hell breaks loose. FDR heeded the call, I think. I don't see anyone with the courage to do so now. The solution could come from either party. But neither has a champion yet. If history holds, an opportunist will arise and save the day. But history only rhymes...

So, to be less kurt than metalman, watch out, and be careful.

Marxism and capitalism are based on the same paradigm. In this paradigm, economic development is the basis of human development; ordinary people are the passive victims or beneficiaries of the actions of elites in a history driven by economic forces beyond human control. It is not possible to derive real democracy from this model of human and social development. "Thinking about Revolution" proposes a different model which makes real democracy possible.

My book, We CAN Change the World, shows why Communist revolutions inevitably lead to totalitarianism. Those interested may find the relevant chapters online: Hope and Revolution, Communism and Counterrevolution and From Marx to Lenin.)

[DSpencer]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

The Wall Street firms did not blunder into a set of crooked rules, they concocted them, financed and rewarded those who implemented them, and implemented them themselves by capturing the relevant regulatory agencies.

So do you blame the puppet or the puppet-master? Both, certainly -- but isn't it well past high time we stop focusing on the kabuki theater on Capitol Hill and on the campaign trails and shift the spotlight to the puppet-masters of the universe?

This debate comes up time and again on this issue. I agree that the answer is both, but I have a slightly different take. The people in government are selected and compensated specifically to protect the public. So they have a higher duty to stop this from happening in my opinion.

Yes, the individuals on the Wall St side deserve blame and punishment in many cases, but we need to be realistic and realize that there will always be people out in the world who will do whatever they can to get ahead. The people we elect to protect us should do their job.

[Kadriana]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

This debate comes up time and again on this issue. I agree that the answer is both, but I have a slightly different take. The people in government are selected and compensated specifically to protect the public. So they have a higher duty to stop this from happening in my opinion.

Yes, the individuals on the Wall St side deserve blame and punishment in many cases, but we need to be realistic and realize that there will always be people out in the world who will do whatever they can to get ahead. The people we elect to protect us should do their job.

I think the people up for election sold their souls to corporations before we even have a chance to vote on them. They had to. Running for office is expensive and it's hard to run unless you have some sort of corporate baking. Honest people can't get elected in this country and a lot of times, they can't even get on the ballot.

[Prazak]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

This debate comes up time and again on this issue. I agree that the answer is both, but I have a slightly different take. The people in government are selected and compensated specifically to protect the public. So they have a higher duty to stop this from happening in my opinion.

Yes, the individuals on the Wall St side deserve blame and punishment in many cases, but we need to be realistic and realize that there will always be people out in the world who will do whatever they can to get ahead. The people we elect to protect us should do their job.

I don't disagree with that at all. Public servants have a fiduciary duty to the public. Fiduciary duties in the financial sector, which are seemingly diluted with each passing year, are, shall we say, more narrow.

My comment was made in response to the suggestion, albeit implied, that Wall Street banksters ought not be held accountable because they were merely playing by the crooked rules established by government. In fact Wall Street planned those rules, and greased the system and the decision-makers who would implement those rules.

And yes, given the scope of the fraud perpetrated by the financial class on the U.S. public, their shakedown of the American taxpayer and the American middle class, it is refreshing to see public scorn heaped where heaping is long overdue, rather than on "big spending liberals" and "Obamacare" and "low income housing" and other such political boogeymen.

[lektrode]

Re: iTulipers who Occupy Wall Street

....Wall Street planned those rules, and greased the system and the decision-makers who would implement those rules.

And yes, given the scope of the fraud perpetrated by the financial class on the U.S. public, their shakedown of the American taxpayer and the American middle class, it is refreshing to see public scorn heaped where heaping is long overdue, rather than on "big spending liberals" and "Obamacare" and "low income housing" and other such political boogeymen.

well its all 3 of those and more, isnt it?

but without the cover provided by the political class, along with sloppy legislation written _by_ the lawyer-politicians _for_ the direct benefit of the banksters in NYC
NONE OF THIS WOULD'VE HAPPENED!

i also find it interesting in our little poll here above, that the 'no and never will' (protest/support OWS) group is growing? not sure what _that_ is saying at this point?