Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

[mesyn191]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

People line up for a chance to buy them and must meet rigorous standards, ( and pay big bucks!) for the rights. I'm sure he doesn't feel exploited.

Stockholm Syndrome. Like most workers they don't understand just how badly they're being exploited by their employer since its all the work they and their buddies know and "everybody else seems to be doing it". Fedex and UPS are both pretty terrible companies that boost their profits by treating their workers like crap. They are some of the best examples of everything that is wrong with businesses today.

There's always two sides to every story.

Sure but usually only one of them is right. If you don't believe me fine then go google up some of the news and lawsuits that c1ue and dcarrigg have mentioned briefly. They easily put the pro Fedex/UPS "story" to rest.

Market forces will adjust eventually if fedex thinks its saving them money.

The "invisible hand of the market" can only work in a non distorted market place.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

Growing up, Parade Magazine always made us laugh with its stupid “What People Earn” issue.

Every high school freshman ought to be taking several economics classes, one being a semester with a text book of the same name, but as thick as a phone book including six or seven pages on postal workers and courier/logistic companies.

[Guest]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

Considering the source (a union official would hardly be objective), I'd be dubious of it as a reason for anything.

Also, I believe the USPS is running operating losses unrelated to the pension thing. Funding pensions would be a cash flow issue, wouldn't it? If reports that they "lose billions" mean an operating loss, then the pension issue would be beside the point.

So, regardless of the effect of requirements to pre-fund pensions, if you're losing money with a monopoly on 1st class mail and the inherent competitive advantages that gives you in terms of package delivery, you have serious management issues. This is of course no shock, as government isn't going to run anything service oriented better than a private company with profit motives would.

I'd also note that until last month's plunge, UPS's stock was about the same as what it was before the recession started in 2007, and they also pay a nice fat dividend as well. They're still profitable. They also have no monopoly on 1st class mail, and have competitive disadvantages such as the fact that their trucks must drive many many more miles per stop to deliver packages, unlike postal carriers who stop at every home and business every day anyway. All those "expensive postal offices" people complain about also make their routes "tight" and more efficient, probably offsetting the cost of the building and real estate involved. (this does not include micro offices that are a waste of money) UPS also pays healthy salaries.

I could easily get by with 3 deliveries a week. But part of the reason they get business is the 6 day thing.

The simple solution would be to end the monopoly on mailboxes and 1st class type mail and let the USPS die a natural death. If people want to live on mountaintops in remote areas where other companies don't want to service it, let them incur the costs by driving into town to get their mail.

[Guest]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

People love to hate the postal service. Too bad, we'll miss it after we destroy it.

Until the 1990s sane national leaders considered the national mail system to be one of the key features of an important nation, like the currency, the courts and the navy.
First class mail has always been highly secure, so that important and sensitive documents would not be lost and would not be intercepted and examined by third parties.

Try to walk in to your local FedEx office with a letter in one hand and single dollar bill in the other hand, and tell them you want the letter to arrive at some remote rural location in central Idaho in a few days.

The USPS isn't without worth. But let's examine some of your points.

Highly secure? Google the terms "check washing", "identity theft", etc. 1st class mail can be sent w/o the shipper knowing who sent it. It is easily stolen. Insuring it requires an inconvenient process. If you think postal employees would be more honest that a private company's, google "postal employee theft" for a few examples. Overall, it's probably not any more secure than the competition.

Yes, if you live in a remote location in Idaho it comes in handy. But I can send an email or fax to a remote location in Idaho for almost no cost. If it's a valuable document it shouldn't be sent 1st class anyway. That's part of the USPS's problem. Outdated product. Why should 99% of the population pay to subsidize those who live in remote areas that a private enterprise would never service? There isn't a grocery store near them either. Should we have state-sponsored money shopping centers for them? What about garbage collection? They will come pick up your 50 lbs of trash every week in some very remote areas for about $5-$7. You're telling me nobody would be willing to fill the gap to deliver mail that was essential if they could get a market price for it?

Go order some high value small item shipped to you. For about $15 or less they'll send it via UPS or Fedex and an employee will hand it to you and require your signature. It's also insured. Then insist on having it sent via USPS registered mail to get the same protections. It's several times more costly. And the last time I did this, my stellar union postal carrier decided that even though it was wrapped in security tape and marked "signature required" all over it in green, that it was good enough to just leave it in my mailbox.

Go online and ask the USPS to ship you hundreds of priority mail boxes. They will send you about as many as you order, for almost nothing. Some business model there. Give away hundreds of glossy expensive boxes for free, hoping to overcharge on the postage to make up for it. Meanwhile if I walk in with a recycled old cardboard box to ship instead, they charge me the same price. Goofy ideas like that are why they lose money.

[Guest]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

So do many of the guys that deliver your furniture for major furniture stores. They make a TON more money than if they were employees due to the fact they are indeed self-employed (if captive to the stores). They sometimes even help finance the driver's purchase. So, when a guy who might have little formal education, mediocre communication and people skills, etc. can work hard and make $80K, I don't consider that a negative.

I know a guy who worked in finance at a high salary and was fired. He now runs a few trucks for Fedex and is said to be doing quite well.

"Jobs" are better suited for those who don't care to work as hard or as long to make a certain pay. For the economy its more efficient to get more self-employed people out there.

[jk]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

the postal service is one of the few functions explicitly mentioned in the constitution. those guys thought it served to bind together the country, and apparently weren't worried about some areas "subsidizing" others if it served to make the country whole. shows what they knew, huh?

[Guest]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

Yes, but the other side of the story still isn't necessarily so clean.

By outsourcing the trucks and delivery, FedEx now has managed to both offload mechanical/maintenance of the delivery trucks as well as management of employees to some other party. This arrangement neatly prevent collective bargaining (i.e. unionization) - be that bad or good.

The arrangement also brings in franchise fees - i.e. FedEx get paid for outsourcing the dirty ugly delivery part of its business.

As for drivers becoming owners: I'm sure that's happened somewhere.

The drivers that I talk to in SF have zero change of becoming owners - because there is simply no way for them to save enough from their $12/hour jobs to pay the 6 digits necessary to buy truck plus route. They do work mighty hard though - a typical day sees them delivering 200+ packages to 100 or so locations.

I should still note, however, that this is for a prime location like the city of SF.

Who says someone is guaranteed the right to be an owner? Or that those without skills/abilities and the discipline to save or to earn more than $12 ever "should" be self-employed?

$12/hour eh? Try $20-$35 for fedex truck owners according to a consulting firm report I read. And they can own up to 4 routes so even more is possible. SF would probably be on the high end of that. You're possibly talking to an employee of a truck/route owner in a market with soft employment possibilities. They say you need a whopping 2 WEEKS of training to be given your own route. I assume an employee of that guy would get even less. Not too many jobs out there with minimal skill and training requirements pay even $12/hour.

Why stop at Fedex? Should Dominos and Papa John's have only company owned delivery vehicles to be, considered a good place to work? What about paper routes?

Pardon me, but driving a vehicle and walking packages, most of which weigh just a few lbs (those that are heavier can be put on a cart), to 100 stops a day in a climate that is rarely very hot would be disputed as being "mighty hard" work by outdoor workers in the south, any construction worker nationwide, and even many factory workers. They also have much more independence and freedom from a boss over their shoulder. They don't get told to go home unpaid when it rains. In fact, if you don't work in an office you probably have it worse just about anywhere else. I hate to break it to some here, but the vast majority of the population do not have "great jobs" in any society. 100 years ago only a tiny proportion of Americans did anything that didn't require 'mighty hard work'. But today it's often considered the equivalent of working on the Burma Railroad during WWII and a disgrace to our nation if a worker is not sitting in a chair in a room kept at 72 degrees continuously. Oh the horror! At the same time we seem to think it's just fine that some immigrant does this sort of hard work all day for $8/hour paid in cash, no benefits, no taxes paid, etc. We want unlimited immigration so we can get this stuff done cheap and when we have our union jobs we can hire them cheap. Then nobody is able to work out the logic that maybe low wages for Americans are related to the unlimited supply of cheap foreign labor.

Let the market settle all this. We have a few decades now of proof that letting corrupt politicians do it instead doesn't work. And besides, its not like Fedex is holding a gun to anybody's head. Maybe privatization of the mail isn't the right solution. What about simply applying the Fedex model to USPS carriers? They already do that with rural route carriers and fill in drivers. I bet you'd see a huge surge in productivity!

I change shirts 2-3 times a day in the summer due to sweating at my business, by the way.

[Guest]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

When you hear the term "exploited" you know what's coming next. The poor babies aren't as smart as we are so we have to paternalistically take care of them through force. I mean everyone who has ever worked for someone else for less than what you consider a "fair wage" is the moral equivalent of a hostage, right?

Heck, it's virtually the old Soviet Union where they tell you what to do and how much you'll make here, right? Why I hear that they now:
- repeatedly slap children who try to study hard so they can't concentrate and they'll not be able to get scholarships
- force young people to not get good grades in a very easy school system so they'll be unable to qualify for state programs for free education.
- force them to watch TV instead of read to supplement their knowledge at home
- force them to drop out as soon as they legally can.
- insist that they surf for porn and update facebook for hours rather than use the incredible tool of the internet to learn how to do things
- demand they not accept the free college money you get with a B average in many states
- deceive them into not attending college or trade schools
- make it illegal for them to take part-time jobs in school to get a leg up on others and savings for college like everyone used to have to do,
- outlaw internships where skills are learned while in school, forcing them to instead chill at the pool all summer.
- make it mandatory that all middle class and above kids spend their school vacations and summers at the beach instead of working seasonal jobs to save for college or anything else.
- practically threaten to kill them if they don't commit crimes to feel cool like the people on tv who have criminal records, thereby making their future employment potential limited.
- force require kids to spend $6000 during their high school years on a full featured iphone and data plan instead of saving and investing that money for college or trade school.
- threaten to imprison parents who save for their kids college rather than spend that money on big tv sets, vacations, and leased cars every 3 years.

I made $4.25/hour at a job once. I make more than ten times that now. I hired someone for $10/hour with no benefits in the past. Can you please clarify if I'm a hostage or hostage taker? Since I once worked for low pay and also once paid low wages I'm too dumb to figure it out myself.

Crazy idea. If you don't like how Fedex runs their business, don't use them and don't work for them. Or, get together with your altruistic friends who want to pay more for labor than they have to and buy up the stock and change it. Oh wait, that requires taking risks. I forgot. Nevermind.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

The USPS isn't without worth. But let's examine some of your points.

Highly secure? Google the terms "check washing", "identity theft", etc. 1st class mail can be sent w/o the shipper knowing who sent it. It is easily stolen. Insuring it requires an inconvenient process. If you think postal employees would be more honest that a private company's, google "postal employee theft" for a few examples. Overall, it's probably not any more secure than the competition.

Go order some high value small item shipped to you. For about $15 or less they'll send it via UPS or Fedex and an employee will hand it to you and require your signature. It's also insured. Then insist on having it sent via USPS registered mail to get the same protections. It's several times more costly. And the last time I did this, my stellar union postal carrier decided that even though it was wrapped in security tape and marked "signature required" all over it in green, that it was good enough to just leave it in my mailbox.

Go online and ask the USPS to ship you hundreds of priority mail boxes. They will send you about as many as you order, for almost nothing. Some business model there. Give away hundreds of glossy expensive boxes for free, hoping to overcharge on the postage to make up for it. Meanwhile if I walk in with a recycled old cardboard box to ship instead, they charge me the same price. Goofy ideas like that are why they lose money.

For all of us who have bought gold or silver through APMEX, it is shipped by the United States Post Office, which APMEX believes is the safest method!

[c1ue]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

Also, I believe the USPS is running operating losses unrelated to the pension thing. Funding pensions would be a cash flow issue, wouldn't it? If reports that they "lose billions" mean an operating loss, then the pension issue would be beside the point.

For a supposed business owner - you don't seem to correlate annual forced cash payments with operating expenses. Pension funding is an operating expense.

So, regardless of the effect of requirements to pre-fund pensions, if you're losing money with a monopoly on 1st class mail and the inherent competitive advantages that gives you in terms of package delivery, you have serious management issues.

If the USPS truly had a monopoly on 1st class mail - all other forms of mail delivery would be illegal.

Clearly they do not.

This is of course no shock, as government isn't going to run anything service oriented better than a private company with profit motives would.

I keep hearing this mantra, and over and over it has been disproven.

Profit does not in any way guarantee better service.

Profit only guarantees the seeking of profit.

In a theoretically maximum competitive situation, what should arise is better service.

In the real world, however, there are a multitude of ways to make money without providing better service even beyond the lack of maximum competition.

These range from straightforward propositions like stronger marketing, to somewhat shady efforts like ingredient quality downsizing, to outright illegal activities like collusion.

[lektrode]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

For all of us who have bought gold or silver through APMEX, it is shipped by the United States Post Office, which APMEX believes is the safest method!

+1
its how mine arrived.
have heard/read of a number of stories of private sector delivery services' personnel 'dipping' into the freight

us priority mail is also quite competitive on delivery times and often quite cheaper than either fx or ups

[lektrode]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

Stockholm Syndrome. Like most workers they don't understand just how badly they're being exploited by their employer since its all the work they and their buddies know and "everybody else seems to be doing it". Fedex and UPS are both pretty terrible companies that boost their profits by treating their workers like crap. They are some of the best examples of everything that is wrong with businesses today....

really?
that must be why _thousands_ show up/apply for every job either of them advertise - was so even before the depression of 2009 started.

and how bad could it be, when even FIREmen are wanting in to the game:

http://smallbusinessonlinecommunity....m/thread/20850
Good evening: I am a former Wall Street Business Owner who after 18 years of owning a small broker dealer, is now in final process of closing it down. With this being the case, I am currently researching businesses for sale in my local area. I reside in Monmouth County, NJ. I virtually was responsible for all facets of running my former business from human resources, staffing, compliance, accounting, payroll, records, budget and cost analysis, managing two trading floor operation all the way to acting as trustee for the firms pension plan. I was in the business since 1981 and incorporated in 1991. So, I am very well versed on the inner workings of running a small business.

I have been looking at various businesses ( brick and mortar to routes ) and one model that I have considered is the FEDEX ground route contractor business. My goal would to be at first to purchase one very good route ( I have the funds for that ) and work it myself for 6 - 12 months which is the approximate time frame I think I will need to familiarize myself with the ins and outs of this type of operation...

[lektrode]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

That's only true for the W2 wages paid to employees of the little driving contractor. If the drivers are working alone as an independent contractors, and presuming they are smart enough to spend 50 buck to incorporate, they can avoid SS tax by taking the income as business earnings due a stockholder on a K-1 rather than as W2 wages. They still pay income tax, but escape FICA.

theres another one of those inconvenient truths: eye looked at that same issue/benefit(?) of re-arranging my biz filing status and the dodging of the FICA was the only advantage that i could see in changing from sole proprietorship - the S corp seemed like it was far more trouble/complexity than it was worth (in my income bracket), along with the need to hire a CPA (at least initially) to keep the paperwork straight, tax filings etc - and the LLC? this seems to be one of the bigger conjobs foisted on the self-employed, in particular - as my read of everything i could find on the topic indicated that its primary benefit is in liability-shielding of ones personal assets - when closer examination of this suggests that it doesnt offer the self-employed-all-by-ones-self any liability shield whatsoever, esp if one doesnt have sufficient liability insurance coverage and even then, it would appear that its all too easy to 'pierce the veil' of the LLC by any even half-bright attorney who's intent on cleaning the LLC operator out - esp if _anything_ is 'comingled' - which is generally _everything_ in the case of the sole proprietor, in that one cant blame an 'employee' if one screws up and gets his customer mad enough to seek revenge

so again - i question precisely why the FICA is levied the way it is (esp when i have to pay _all_ 15.3% of it myself)
never mind when its capped at 106k, while even obama/liberals sez 200k/year = rich? then why is the limit 1/2 that?
and why should one be able to escape paying it entirely, just because of this loophole???

adding: but i pay the FICA, as a hedge on the bet that either A: i become disabled or B: that unk ben can somehow pull a rabbit out of his hat(ass) and allow/assist the politicians to fix the system that they allowed to break/screw The Rest of US

but i guess i'm off topic - sorry.. its a personal peeve of mine.

[lektrode]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

being a fedx ground driver seems like a perty good deal/bet if one puts in the effort

http://www.globalbx.com/listing.asp?bId=38828

Fedex Ground Pickup & Delivery Route
Location: United States -> Alabama -> Birmingham
Industry: Business Services > Postal and Messenger Services

Business Summary

Pick-up and Delivery Route with Fedex Ground. Well established route in the Sylacuaga, ALABAMA area. Route produced $95,000 last year and is growing rapidly. I cleared $67,000 after all expenses. I'm selling the route for $27,500 obo. Also have a 2008 Freightline P-1200 Step-van with only 60,000 miles with lease/purchase payments of $1028.00 monthly. Willing to sell route with or without truck. Must be willing to take a drug test and background check. Also must be able to meet all Fedex Ground requirement, i.e. DOT safe driving course. No CDL required. Contact YONAS GHIRMAY at 251-382-4968 for more information on this Fedex Ground Pickup & Delivery Route business for sale.


Financials

Asking Price Range: < $250K
Gross Revenues: $95,000
Cash Flow: $67,000
Cash Flow Type: Sellers Discretionary Cash
Seller Financing: Not Disclosed

About The Business

Year Established: 1998
Number of Employees: 1 - 3
Relocatable: No
Franchise: Not Disclosed
Current Real Estate: Owned

About The Sale

Management Training and Support: Will Train up-to 30 days.
Reason For Selling: Other business interest.

and several more: http://www.businessmart.com/business...s-for-sale.php

[lektrode]

Re: Post Office a bad business or being made into a bad business?

the postal service is one of the few functions explicitly mentioned in the constitution. those guys thought it served to bind together the country, and apparently weren't worried about some areas "subsidizing" others if it served to make the country whole. shows what they knew, huh?

+1
yep - they also said something about: only the US Treasury shall have the power to coin money...
but look what happened...
so much for the 'liberal(s) interpretation' of it and the concept of the constitution being a 'living' document, eh?